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Thread: Religion is Arrogance; Faith is Acceptance

  1. #26
    Vegetative Member Rockster's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by TradingBeanz View Post
    That made me laugh, hey! I have thought the same thing every time I hear scientist speaking of infinity!
    Mathematicians use infinity in their calculation no problem, just ask Lawrence Krauss.

    @groo. A 'bouncing' universe was once posited but now we know our universe is expanding and accelerating and what we know most certainly isn't laughable as to laugh at it is to understand it and neither you nor me knows a single thing about quantum mechanics and which is a gob smackingly amazing branch of physics and I'm very happy there are people like Krauss who do understand and whose smallest farts probably have an IQ higher than me.

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    Shadinated groo's Avatar

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    Well, to my way of thinking, we know what we can measure. But we don't even really know if the speed of light is the constant we think it is. For all we really *know* from experience and measurement, it may well be a different constant value in other parts of the universe. Most of what we claim to "know" is theory that hasn't been defeated yet, but that doesn't mean it's correct.

    We're a young species. We have much to learn about many things.

    My main point is that a theory which hasn't been disproven isn't the same thing as a fact.

    English is notorious for using the same word to mean different things. When I think of the infinite, I am thinking at least as much of the label used for the vast unknown in philosophy as opposed to the mathematical definition. I think the philosophical meaning has much greater scope than the mathematical, though the mathematical is something we can use and apply in our calculations.

    Even if we *have* successfully "measured" the universe, it's still such a big thing that our minds can't truly grasp it as any more than a number. We can babble and talk about how it's sheer size implies that there are hundreds of thousands of inhabited planets in a galaxy, and postulate how many intelligent species that might include. We can extrapolate that to the massive number of observable galaxies, and postulate about the unseen galaxies beyond the boundaries of our telescope's visions. But we can't really claim to *understand* the sheer scope of all that theoretical alien intelligence.

    In fact the only thing we can conclude from it is that we are not alone in the universe, and wonder what those alien species with their entirely different life experiences might be like. I think that's one of the reasons I always liked science fiction more than fantasy -- science fiction sets no bounds on the imagination of the authors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by groo View Post
    But we don't even really know if the speed of light is the constant we think it is.
    It isn't. Jut ask Feynman. It also only goes in straight lines when you average out the distance. (Light in a vacuum however..)


    English is notorious for using the same word to mean different things. When I think of the infinite, I am thinking at least as much of the label used for the vast unknown in philosophy as opposed to the mathematical definition.
    Stop doing that. It lumps you in with the "it's only a theory" crowd. Gravity is "only" a theory. That's abuse of language and something YECs are notorious for.

    I think the philosophical meaning has much greater scope than the mathematical, though the mathematical is something we can use and apply in our calculations.
    No, I'd have to say I completely disagree. Mathematically infinite does not ever end, the philosophical version often is a stand in for "really huge" or "my invisible friend".

    Even if we *have* successfully "measured" the universe
    We haven't.

    But we can't really claim to *understand* the sheer scope of all that theoretical alien intelligence..
    For something that arrogant we'd need religion.
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    I refuse to accord every theory the same weight. The value of a theory is not just in how well it fits the evidence, but in how much evidence has been collected.
    I do not fail -- I succeed at finding out what does not work.

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    It's the other way 'round.

    The theory is what we use to explain the facts that we've collected.

    Which is why evolution is both a theory and a fact.

    Not to be confused with the layman's usage of the word to mean "a guess that I made".
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    Yes, but we've only been collecting accurate astronomical facts for what? 75 years, tops? That's not long at all in the cosmic scheme of things. And some of the "facts" we've collected have only been observed in the past 5-10 years that are being used to justify the theories. I'll wait until we've put at least a few *lifetimes* into the observations before I'd consider those theories "proven". Just my opinion, of course -- everyone is entitled to use their own judgement as to when a theory has enough proof to be considered fact.

    I mean, come on -- we haven't even been able to observe "dark matter" yet, and theory says it makes up something like 90% of the universe!
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    It's the other way around, Groo.

    Facts first, theories are the framework that explain them.

    Only in religion do you come up with guess and then look for facts that you try to shoehorn into the guess. (ie flat earth, geocentric universe, 6k year old universe, impossible global deluge, etc)

    Science never claims anything to be "proven". It says, "this is what we know based on the available evidence, it can always change with new information".
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    Some interesting prophecies here about IPv6

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    Well, then I guess you'd have to say I *expect* certain theories to change, while others are unlikely to.

    I am, after all, a skeptic at heart. I trust little and doubt much, except when it comes to friends and family.
    I do not fail -- I succeed at finding out what does not work.

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    Flowering Member JohnnyMan's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadimar View Post

    Science never claims anything to be "proven". It says, "this is what we know based on the available evidence, it can always change with new information".

    Oh, I'm not too sure about that. Science has tried to prove me wrong many times, and has called me names, too.

    Shit, just last week it made fun of me in front of my girl, and then had the balls to borrow twenty bucks off of me.

    And of course I ain't seen it since.
    I wish it was bong time

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groo
    Well, then I guess you'd have to say I *expect* certain theories to change, while others are unlikely to.
    That is how science moves forward

    Apologists like to phrase it as some kind of "changing their minds" or "jumping all over the place" but as fields advance and measurements become finer the data narrows in on the specific answer from the more general one.

    For example, you may remember the face on mars?

    When NASA sent the next probe with a higher res camera it turned out to be nothing more than a hill that during the right season, at low resolution, the human mind wants to blur into a human face due to the shadows.

    With a better camera or another time of year however, no more face.

    Of course, that didn't stop some from insisting that the Martians spotted the fly over (what fantastic eyesight ) and destroyed their monument of a human face, then went back into hiding.

    I can't prove it, but I suspect these are the same people who believe that NASA didn't send people to Luna seven times and land six of 'em, and also keep spamming the comments section on YouTube about religion.
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  13. #38
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    Wasn't there something about Betty Boop in a grilled cheese sandwhich a number of years back?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadimar View Post
    Wasn't there something about Betty Boop in a grilled cheese sandwhich a number of years back?

    mmmmmmm grilled cheese sandwich aaaarrrggg
    I wish it was bong time

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    Quote Originally Posted by groo View Post
    Well, then I guess you'd have to say I *expect* certain theories to change, while others are unlikely to.

    I am, after all, a skeptic at heart. I trust little and doubt much, except when it comes to friends and family.
    And religion methinks? Your comment about the speed of light makes me think you are a YEC, is that correct?

    If so, no way are you a skeptic.

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    hey groo, what do you all a pregnant virgin?
    *
    *
    *
    *
    *
    *
    a fu#@ing liar

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    WTF is a "YEC"? I tried to find a definition, but even Wikipedia doesn't narrow it down http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YEC

    *LOL* @ T&G

    If YEC is referring to these "Young Earth" people, then no, I'm *definitely* not a YEC. I just don't think we've actually measured the universe -- I believe it actually *is* infinite and therefore unmeasurable. Nor am I a fan of the multiverse theories. It is perpetually growing, which to me seems to be the very definition of infinity -- something which never reaches a limit.

    I don't expect religion to change much to correspond to modern knowledge because religion is just a collection of myths, folklore, and analogy/colourful stories. I'm sure most people don't take the stories literally, just a few nutbars. Unfortunately some of those nutbars are in politics...

    You could dig up the body of Jesus with the nail marks in the hands and feet and a cut in the side, embalmed and preserved, and the Jews would still shrug their shoulders and say "So what? He wasn't the Messiah." The Muslims would shrug their shoulders and say "So what? He was just a prophet." The Buddhists would shrug their shoulders and say "Another Boddhisatva. Tell me something new." The Christians, on the other hand, would probably panic because it would pop the bubble of their story of a physical rise into heaven.

    I don't understand how *anyone* can take religious stories *literally.* They're a collection of the tales told by illiterate shepherds, farmers, and villagers who couldn't even read or write while they sat around campfires in times of old. They're as believable as the ghost stories people tell nowadays. Fun, entertaining, and perhaps thought provoking, but certainly not to be believed as facts.
    Last edited by groo; 11-13-2013 at 01:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groo
    I just don't think we've actually measured the universe
    No scientist has *ever* claimed to have measured the universe.

    Religion proclaims that while all the facts continue to pile up proving the contrary.

    They're as believable as the ghost stories people tell nowadays.
    Remember, it's been centuries of superstition fighting science. Trying to claim "look, we all believe in stupid shit, my magic is just as valid as your electron cloud" and "DEATH TO THE WITCH!" who turned out to be an herbalist.

    -------------

    Stephen Fry was sucked into a tour in Salt Lake City when the Mormon tour guide went into her bit about how all the members will be reunited after death. At which point the National Treasure of England raised his hand and asked:

    What happens if you've been good?
    ..he was asked to leave.

    Question unanswered.

    Last edited by Shadimar; 11-13-2013 at 04:30 PM.
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    Stephen Fry, Professional Shit Disturber.
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    I noticed along time ago that Bars,, and Churchs have one common thing,,,,,
    they are full of people that don't like their home,, or their life very much,,,
    not all of them,,,, but alot,,,, some are just lonely mby,,,
    that mite explain why alot of them seem to think they have the right to tell others ,,,
    how to live theirs,,,,, er,,, mby not,,,, I dono,,,,

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by T&G View Post
    hey groo, what do you all a pregnant virgin?
    *
    *
    *
    *
    *
    *
    a fu#@ing liar
    Depends on who's doing the lying. A lot of people bought that crap, and still do today. They feed it to their offspring. The offspring are puzzled. The entire story is full of holes.

    Oh look a flashing light....
    I wish it was bong time

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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyMan View Post
    Oh look a flashing light....
    Call Fox News.

    They believe EVERYTHING

    ...unless it's true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadimar View Post
    Call Fox News.

    They believe EVERYTHING

    ...unless it's true.

    Call who, man???
    I wish it was bong time

    I'm up to 15 strains, and lovin' it:

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    9. OG Ghost Train x Haze #1
    10. Sunshine Daydream
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    Ghostbusters!

    Clearly that flashing light is a wayward spirit that won't "cross over." :P
    I do not fail -- I succeed at finding out what does not work.

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