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  1. #1
    Epic Genetics
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    Default photosynthesis <-- people should study it

    due to debatable methods being put out in the cyber world i found myself wondering how many growers actually look into and study photosynthesis

    the reason a plant grows in the dark is due to the fact the plant utilizes stored energy, of which it wouldnt have without photosynthesis, and that stored energy is being used at the end of the cycle anyway be it in the light or the dark, without light there would be no stored energy, the better the light the more energy produced and eventually stored

    as for trichome production, without light you wont get any and the more intense the light the more trichome production the plant feels the need to produce in order to protect/defend itself

    biology/horticulture/science has proven higher intensity of light and uv greatly increase resin/trichome production indoors and out, it is time the days of darkness before harvesting myth was put to rest

    anyone have proven professional evidence proving otherwise ? and please, not just he said/she said claims, actual proof with sources provided would be greatly appreciated

    lets make this fun as well as educational

    food for thought (pun intended lol)

    peace

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    Seedling rangergord's Avatar

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    I've got a few myths I'd like to put to rest too. I guess I will have to stand in line. Proof with sources eh! Something tells me we will be waiting for a while! LOL

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    Shadbot 4.20 Shadimar's Avatar

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    I remember once on another forum someone started a thread about grow myths, you know.. things like you need to start seedlings under an incandescent black light, drive nails through the stalks just before harvest to massively increase potency, resin flows downward through the plant when it hangs.. things that should be as firmly in the myth basket as a flat earth and geocentric universe.

    It wasn't even as far as the second page before the arguments started
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    Warning: No facts, but I think a good line of reasoning from which I draw zero conclusions

    Well, I think we should acknowledge the fact that the scientific community (ie. those whose work is published in reputable journals, not just in a magazine or something) simply do not have the public funds or permission to study precisely what factors play a role and what contribution each factor has in promoting growth and development of cannabis plants, including trichome production and maintenance.

    Although I often stick to the principle of Occam's Razor (the simplest answer is often correct), I for one believe trichome production is much more complicated that simply how many lumens reach the leaves (ie. rate of photosynthesis).

    From an evolutionary point of view, the plant makes trichomes mostly for defense (physical barrier to harmful UV light, insects, humidity and temperature; a chemical barrier to fungus and other animals that might nibble the buds and get the nutrient rich seeds). As such, it actually suits Occam's principle more appropriately if trichome production/maintenance was sensitive to environmental factors/stressors which might naturally affect the plant. Now, we must immediately acknowledge that turning off the lights (read: Sun) for a few days is NOT natural. However, it remains entirely likely that this unnatural stress could be beneficial. From the plants point of view, it's sole purpose in life is to reproduce ie. make seed. As trichome production serves as a defensive system for allowing seed development, it seems feasible that under most conditions of sublethal stress the plant will react in such a way as to protect it's progeny. Boosting trichome production and/or boosting the chemical potency within trichomes would be the most straightforward defensive strategy for that plant.

    I for one firmly believe in the beneficial effects of mild/healthy stress on growth and development of organisms. We humans experience it everyday in our own lives. Adaptive immunity (ie. sickness followed by immunity via establishing an antibody response); a glass of wine a day strengthens the liver; Exercise is beneficial in a number of ways. But one could make the case that strictly speaking, each of these things is unnecessary for a human to survive. But we benefit from them. Now, I realize that I'm comparing apples to oranges here, but the principle that mild stress can be healthy is one I subscribe to.

    Anyway, no conclusions drawn or intended to be drawn. Just my view of how I think plants might act. There has got to be some established growers out there who have done a side by side grow with identical clones, identical growth, and the only difference being a light vs. dark period before harvest. That must exist...
    Leda Uno, Celestial Temple Sativa grow thread: https://www.treatingyourself.org/sho...570#post357570
    PPK, RSK, SS grow thread: https://www.treatingyourself.org/sho...L-stealth-grow

  5. #5
    Flowering Member nohibition's Avatar

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    From an evolutionary point of view, the plant makes trichomes mostly for defense (physical barrier to harmful UV light, insects, humidity and temperature; a chemical barrier to fungus and other animals that might nibble the buds and get the nutrient rich seeds).

    As trichome production serves as a defensive system for allowing seed development, it seems feasible that under most conditions of sublethal stress the plant will react in such a way as to protect it's progeny. Boosting trichome production and/or boosting the chemical potency within trichomes would be the most straightforward defensive strategy for that plant.

    One of the members spotted a nanner on one of my plants. I immediately checked and they where all affected (serious light leak). This is medicine for my wife (cancer) and myself (osteoarthritis). I went on a neutering mission...nothing to lose. My point is that in doing this I certainly subjected my plants to some stress and will continue to do so. Will they produce more trichs?
    I have always thought that the trichomes job was to cause pollen to stick and when denied pollen the female produced more trichs in an effort to increase her chance of doing so, and that once pollinated she diverts all of her energy to developing seed rather than trichs. If my plants are going to produce more trichs to protect her seeds...I'm confused, don't I want more trichs. If a pollinated female produces more trichs which are more potent why am I growing sensei. This logic flys in the face of everything I thought I knew.
    I also thought that the small clear spikes where for defense etc.
    Last edited by nohibition; 11-01-2013 at 02:33 PM.
    I fall upon the earth, and I am embraced. Water gives me life, and I spring forth into the light. My roots run deep into the earth, and I am nourished. With wind and water, light and earth, I conspire to ease your pain and heal your wounds, to bring you peace and calm your mind, to give you wisdom and truth of heart.
    I return to the earth and I am embraced.I am Cannabis
    Nohibition

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    Those are good points to bring up, and I should clarify my view is very simplistic.

    I'll address the nanners, or male flowers first. Again from an evolutionary view, a plant spitting out nanners is probably doing so to try to self pollinate and thus reproduce. While growers hate this, it is a very smart strategy for a plant that may not have been pollinated. There is a reason that stressed plants can produce male flowers- they want babies!! I should clarify that trich development is one option of responding to stress, but growing male flowers is another so it's a fine line and optimization is always a good thing!

    As for your question about trichomes catching pollen- as far as I know this is NOT their purpose. My evidence for this is as follows: 1) the pistils (white hairs) are the organs that react to male pollen and facilitate fertilization of a female seed. They stick out further than the rest of the bud components in an attempt to catch pollen in the air or from insects. They aren't really in a position to physically touch trichomes. Plus trichomes are extremely sticky and I'm not sure pollen would be viable or transferable from trichome stalks to pistils.

    Lastly, with regards to seed development versus trichome development, here are my thoughts: When you pollinate cannabis, the calyxes do divert most energy into making seeds. But, they also maintain trichome coverage. If you've ever made seeds, you will know the seeded buds are still covered with trichomes! I always keep and get great smoke from the shake following seed removal. One thing to keep in mind here is that the seeds take up a LOT of space and energy. So, instead of a bud being filled with say a few hundred calyxes (the pods where seeds develop) all covered in trichomes, the plant when pollinated diverts energy into making seeds and will not develop as many calyxes and the corresponding trichomes. So basically, you sacrifice seed development for bud size. Back in the day people smoked seeded cannabis, but it's a dirtier smoke because of combustion of seeds. You absolutely still get a great high from seeded bud.

    As always, I qualify this as my opinion and not fact
    Leda Uno, Celestial Temple Sativa grow thread: https://www.treatingyourself.org/sho...570#post357570
    PPK, RSK, SS grow thread: https://www.treatingyourself.org/sho...L-stealth-grow

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    Flowering Member nohibition's Avatar

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    Thanx Superman your advice is appreciated.
    Regarding my hermie problem.
    I know "neutering" is an exercise in futility, it took me hours to do just six plants and you cannot get the ones buried in the cola. These plants have 3 1/2 weeks to go and if it's worth it I will put in whatever effort is necessary. In my experience and comments from other members these are nice plants.
    What are your thoughts? Should I drop them or carry on?
    I fall upon the earth, and I am embraced. Water gives me life, and I spring forth into the light. My roots run deep into the earth, and I am nourished. With wind and water, light and earth, I conspire to ease your pain and heal your wounds, to bring you peace and calm your mind, to give you wisdom and truth of heart.
    I return to the earth and I am embraced.I am Cannabis
    Nohibition

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    I shouldn't give advice as I'm a still a new grower and haven't had hermie problems.

    Practically speaking, nanners are only dangerous if they are able to release pollen- so the ones buried in your bud don't worry about them. Anything that's on the outside could do damage in 3 weeks making your bud messy with very premature seeds starting. Try to remove as many showing male parts as possible. I'm sure it's a sucky waste of time, but you've put so much time into it I wouldn't quit with 3 weeks left!
    Leda Uno, Celestial Temple Sativa grow thread: https://www.treatingyourself.org/sho...570#post357570
    PPK, RSK, SS grow thread: https://www.treatingyourself.org/sho...L-stealth-grow

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    Seedling rangergord's Avatar

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    So it looks like we have plenty of observations and quit a bit of peer review. Can we get some consensus and draw some conclusions so we have proof? If the climate scientists can all agree carbon dioxide is going to kill us all surely we can do even better? Seriously you all have made some good points!

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    Flowering Member nohibition's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superman C View Post
    I shouldn't give advice as I'm a still a new grower and haven't had hermie problems.

    Practically speaking, nanners are only dangerous if they are able to release pollen- so the ones buried in your bud don't worry about them. Anything that's on the outside could do damage in 3 weeks making your bud messy with very premature seeds starting. Try to remove as many showing male parts as possible. I'm sure it's a sucky waste of time, but you've put so much time into it I wouldn't quit with 3 weeks left!
    Well new grower or not you seem to have put some time in. I've been growing indoors for about five years and I'm still enormously ignorant because I didn't ask for help. I do that here every day now.
    As for the nanners...well what I've been plucking may not be nanners at all. A single sac growing at every node with two hairs Another member pointed a nanner out on a plant that was stressed and he was correct but I just ran wild and didn't pay attention to what he told me. I decide to hit the books and...OH, OH.
    Never whine about a mistake, just move forward the wiser for the error.
    Thanks for the guidance, it is always appreciated. I'm sure I'll get a chance to pay it forward.
    I fall upon the earth, and I am embraced. Water gives me life, and I spring forth into the light. My roots run deep into the earth, and I am nourished. With wind and water, light and earth, I conspire to ease your pain and heal your wounds, to bring you peace and calm your mind, to give you wisdom and truth of heart.
    I return to the earth and I am embraced.I am Cannabis
    Nohibition

  11. #11
    Epic Genetics
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    good posts all around supermanc , and everyone else

    as for side by sides on the light vrs dark before harvest, over the years ive dont it with every strain ive grown multiple cycles, for instance, og kush, ive been growing it now 4+ years, all from the original clone/female i started with

    once in a while like with other strains in the past i will try the darkness, call it needing a reminder or whatever, but the point is, i do experiment

    to this day ive never seen a benefit from the dark cycle and being a member in many forums and knowing personally many growers in real life ive taken notice that far more people claim no benefit then the ones who claim they do see some

    i even forgot 2 white widow (some claim only the white strains show benefit) plants in my harvesting/drying room for 2 weeks or close to it, they were surprisingly still alive but showed no new growth or added trichome production

    @ nohibition ive noticed great resin/trichome production with my seeded plants and there have been reports from well know breeders that the best bud they ever smoked was seeded, Nevil being one of them who said it

    peace

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    Vegetative Member Northern Man's Avatar

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    From my own growing experience, nothing scientific, I have tried "no lights" at the end of the plant life cycle.

    My observation has left me with more questions than answers.

    During a plants life cycle I have seen, more lumens= more trichome production. Genetic dependent. Some genetics just produce more.

    At the end of the life cycle I have encountered, during lights out (or on), several things happen.

    1- Larger trichome heads/bulbs, not more trichome stalks.

    2- Trichome ripening. Clear/cloudy trichomes changing over to amber trichomes.

    Even with back to back grows using the same genetics, I have yet to come up with any evidence of more trichomes. (@ Lights on or off at the end of a life cycle.) Just the two items I have listed.

    Now from my unscientific observation, I have come to the conclusion that my observations maybe, "me", mistaking the plants natural ripening phase of life, in association with the time frame of harvesting, lights on or off, seeing the two items listed.

    I cannot make a definite statement that lights out has an effect.

    Although I will experiment with this when growing a new genetic. Just to see if I can find answers to my observations. Nothing concrete, just happy testing the end product, lol.

    My observations.

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    One thing I'm willing to accept is the idea that the plants may smoke smoother because they spent a week or two living on stored starch and sugar reserves to stay alive.

    However, the idea that you watch them grow painfully slow for months on end only to do some magic rain dance at the very end that makes all the difference in the world not only defies science and logic, but also opens up the question of why the grower is not using this technique throughout the grow if it works so well at the end.

    The attempted answers to that question lead us down the road of why orchards pay employees to harvest fruit; not de-leaf trees, hack up the roots or drive nails into stumps.. etc. The plant spent a great deal of time preparing these chemical compounds and genetics allowing, the best way to get more is with a healthier plant, not a struggling and dying one.

    I'm mildly surprised no one brought up Carbon Fixation yet, as more primitive plants actually do collect CO2 at night and form sugars during the day, Cannabis and other rapid biomass producers not being one of those plants.

    I'm, also willing to accept that THC levels may rise in the glands with extended dark before harvest as UV light does break it down, however this raises the question of whether or not the plant will continue to produce more resins after missing the first expected day or three. For one, it no longer needs to, and does it still have the required energy to do so?

    The interesting thing about science is that when done properly, we all get the same answer regardless of who we are and what we thought would happen when we started.
    Last edited by Shadimar; 11-02-2013 at 11:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadimar View Post
    I remember once on another forum someone started a thread about grow myths, you know.. things like you need to start seedlings under an incandescent black light, drive nails through the stalks just before harvest to massively increase potency, resin flows downward through the plant when it hangs.. things that should be as firmly in the myth basket as a flat earth and geocentric universe.

    It wasn't even as far as the second page before the arguments started
    What the hey, Shad? The earth is not flat, what do you mean?!!!
    And when do we gt to the 2nd page?!!!!
    Hopefully a healthy debate!!!

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    Shadbot 4.20 Shadimar's Avatar

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    Uh, oh.

    Hopefully this doesn't mean you'll be defending the bits about resin flowing, nails in the stalk, and blacklights

    You might want to re-read that
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superman C View Post
    Those are good points to bring up, and I should clarify my view is very simplistic.

    I'll address the nanners, or male flowers first. Again from an evolutionary view, a plant spitting out nanners is probably doing so to try to self pollinate and thus reproduce. While growers hate this, it is a very smart strategy for a plant that may not have been pollinated. There is a reason that stressed plants can produce male flowers- they want babies!! I should clarify that trich development is one option of responding to stress, but growing male flowers is another so it's a fine line and optimization is always a good thing!

    As for your question about trichomes catching pollen- as far as I know this is NOT their purpose. My evidence for this is as follows: 1) the pistils (white hairs) are the organs that react to male pollen and facilitate fertilization of a female seed. They stick out further than the rest of the bud components in an attempt to catch pollen in the air or from insects. They aren't really in a position to physically touch trichomes. Plus trichomes are extremely sticky and I'm not sure pollen would be viable or transferable from trichome stalks to pistils.

    Lastly, with regards to seed development versus trichome development, here are my thoughts: When you pollinate cannabis, the calyxes do divert most energy into making seeds. But, they also maintain trichome coverage. If you've ever made seeds, you will know the seeded buds are still covered with trichomes! I always keep and get great smoke from the shake following seed removal. One thing to keep in mind here is that the seeds take up a LOT of space and energy. So, instead of a bud being filled with say a few hundred calyxes (the pods where seeds develop) all covered in trichomes, the plant when pollinated diverts energy into making seeds and will not develop as many calyxes and the corresponding trichomes. So basically, you sacrifice seed development for bud size. Back in the day people smoked seeded cannabis, but it's a dirtier smoke because of combustion of seeds. You absolutely still get a great high from seeded bud.

    As always, I qualify this as my opinion and not fact
    That is some awesome observation and theory. I wonder if trichomes are there to protect the seeds.

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    Seedling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadimar View Post
    Uh, oh.

    Hopefully this doesn't mean you'll be defending the bits about resin flowing, nails in the stalk, and blacklights

    You might want to re-read that
    What, are you saying you don't stick nails through your plants?!!!
    I love the idea of keeping spider mites at bay, getting through the heatwave with plants that are alive and then jut wacking a nail in for giggles, NOT~!!!~~
    Last year temps in the room were hitting 45% Celsius! I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit, isn't Fahrenheit
    a different sort of heat entirely anyways? LOL

    Resin flows sideways, I hear, and black lights are only good in discoes!

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    Shadbot 4.20 Shadimar's Avatar

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    It was in the sense that originally, Celsius, which was Centigrade, used 0 as boiling and 100 as the freezing point of water.
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    Nails are so last year, boiling the rootball is so in this year


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    I brought this Huntsman into my room to pick off the little insects.
    He/She never moves and I have since found out that Huntsman spiders only eat a "challenge".
    He/She will kill any other spiders that come into it's territory too.
    My huntsman is going back outside! Enter a Daddy Long Legs!!!

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    Shadinated groo's Avatar

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    The big problem is that because the people who believe in the "wive's tales" and witch-doctor solutions aren't versed in plant biology or really thinking about things in those terms, you can never convince them they're wrong. They'll stubbornly rant and argue and claim they have proof, pointing to dozens of other rabid enthusiasts who believe as they do.

    I gave up trying to educate people a long time ago. It's not worth the stress. I prefer to just leave it with "Did you ever take Grade 12 biology? Remember the chapters on plants? Cannabis is a plant."

    Not that I'm an expert or anything, but plants are pretty simple creatures. They like light. They like water. They like food. Give them that and they'll grow. Maybe not as well as you'd like them to if you don't give them exactly what they want, but they will grow. You have to screw up pretty bad or get hit with some infestation/infection to kill off a plant.
    I do not fail -- I succeed at finding out what does not work.

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    As to the original question, Sorry Epic, this is your thread, I have studied photosynthesis and the role that it plays in growing.
    Some people swear by using 24 hour cycles, I will not do this. I have tried it and I have noticed a difference in plants that have
    been started in 24 hour light with no dark period.

    Never harvet with lights on, it tastes harsh. This is in outdoor to. My friend grows the best smoke but harvests in the daytime,
    after sunlight. It is much better to pull up before lights on, or before sun-up. Or not turn your lights on.

    I have been told by someone armed with some good knowledge that an extra 12 hour dark period on top of the normal 12 hours
    off does help but I was not told how or why. A fairly well known breeder uses this, I will not attempt to explain why, I do not know!

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    Seedling Superman C's Avatar

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    I'm not sure how I weigh in on this. Plants are simple if you look at them like an object. If you think of them as life that adapts and is plastic, it becomes more complicated. In fact, most plants are considered to have evolved more than humans, if we use genetic evolution and gene content as a measure.

    I for one believe that while there are very important 'key factors' that drive the life of a plant, ie. energy (sun, insects, etc.) and building blocks (minerals, amino acids, etc.). These factors play pivotal and massive roles. Analogously, we humans require food to provide both the energy and building blocks to allow us to survive at a minimalist level.

    But this is not the whole story. Just as in humans, plants have evolved and rely on numerous 'systems', such as nutrient, water, and energy transport, reproductive organ development, and defensive mechanisms. These systems are inherently complex and therefore sensitive (at varying levels) to environment/chemical cues. As humans, we see first hand the multitude of things that can go awry when even a small change occurs in one of these systems (read: disease, such those caused by radiation, chemotherapy, other chemical and environmental insults). Interestingly, this we are not always changed in a negative way. Great examples of this come from certain autistic people who develop absolutely incredible mental abilities, such as mathematical computing or 100% accurate memory for every detail of everyday in that persons life [note: I believe the memory man I refer to also suffered brain trauma triggering the memory enhancement].

    I'm not saying I always believe it or think it's common, but I do believe in the principal and potential that small changes *can* make a medium to big difference in an organism in very specific conditions.

    Realistically, I wouldn't be surprised to see small, but significant changes in the chemical content of certain strains following an exposure to darkness. A change I suspect would be highly dependent on plant genetics and growth conditions, and therefore not common.

    Sorry for rambling! I get carried away when I'm high.

    ps. a documentary on plants if you're bored! not superb, but kind of interesting. talks about root system being the 'brain' of a plant, among other things
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeX6ST7rexs
    Leda Uno, Celestial Temple Sativa grow thread: https://www.treatingyourself.org/sho...570#post357570
    PPK, RSK, SS grow thread: https://www.treatingyourself.org/sho...L-stealth-grow

  24. #24
    Shadinated groo's Avatar

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    The one thing I learned that makes a big difference is pH. When you get it right, your plants will grow *significantly* faster and bigger, with larger buds and an overall more robust health. However, pHing in soil is "challenging" at best, so I *know* my crops are going to be smaller than they could be under ideal conditions.

    The complexity of a plant pretty much takes care of itself. It was bred to adapt to the ever changing conditions of nature and to survive. So I think I'm safe in saying that you can *let* the plant adapt under most circumstances, and it will do so. There is no need to make things more complex than they have to be, unless you're just curious and interested in the details of plant biology.

    You don't have to be a biologist to run a farm, or a vet to raise cattle. You just need to know enough to take care of them properly.
    I do not fail -- I succeed at finding out what does not work.

  25. #25
    Epic Genetics
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    imo "stress" ripening is foolish, causing a plant to prematurely age/die does have a noticable effect and imo not a good one, its the same noticable effect as when you let a plant go way to long, only "stress" ripening speeds it up greatly

    and no groo i dont mean the little longer you like to have the plants better help your headaches

    peace

    p.s. lol my new method name, the epic method "stress ripening"

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