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  1. #1
    Embryo

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    Default Grow to first set of leaves, then just stop growing?

    Like the title says. We start the Strawberry Diesel F2's (very small seeds like the parents) in paper towel and have been getting about 50% tails. The tails get transferred to potting soil where they come up to about the first set of leaves, then just stop growing. This is the same soil I use for everything else, potting soil, ph controlled feedings with RO water and very light nutes, etc.. Any suggestions as to where I should be looking for my problem, Thanks.

    Mr. Grimbo

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    Vegetative Member GreenMeds's Avatar

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    A couple of pics would help. I germ like this all the time and rarely have an issue. Do you use a seedling heater? A clear dome? Is your soil damp or soaked?

    I had one bad experience with a batch of beans that were just not viable. Like 6 out of 10 I soaked 24 hours in mild seaweed H2O split & grew tap roots, but only 3 ended up doing reasonably well once into soil. The others died. Could just be not great beans...

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    Boris S. Wort S_a_H's Avatar

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    Over watered ?

    To cold ?

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    Shadbot 4.20 Shadimar's Avatar

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    Do they grow real leaves or just the cotyledon?
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    420grower
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    pics certainly would help,peace

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    Embryo

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    Can't do pics but I can address the questions so far. I don't think I have overwatered them and the temps are indoor. The guage shows 65F, and a relative humidity of about 50% at this time of year. They are in small starter size cups with recycled "Happy Frog" dirt. They tend to grow to about 1-2" (3-5cm) in the first couple days they develop what looks to be normal cotyledon, then a nice set or even two of real leaves... then everything just stops and they don't develop a root system and get no larger. They don't die, they just shut down. I am not sure of the soil PH but I do test all feedings and ferts for ph between say, 5.8-6-2 (not super strict).

    The seeds are from the moms and dads we got when we ran Strawberry Diesel from Rez, right before OG shut down, what 5-6 years ago?? They are very tiny seeds, I am getting about 50% germ rates using the paper towel method and putting them on top of the tv for a day or two...

    I am thinking it's the soil. Even though I flush it good it might be too hot. I am thinking of trying the bark root plugs I use for cloning, under the dome with the mat heater so there is no transplanting from papertowels etc...

    Looking for your suggestions though, let me know what you all think.

    Mr. Grimbo

  7. #7
    420grower
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    well 65f is way to cold for good veg for this plant,75-80 is a good summer temp to follow.so if soils and every thing else is good,warmer temps should get things growing,peace

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    Vegetative Member GreenMeds's Avatar

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    Also don't feed them anything, except maybe some seaweed extract in the water for the first couple of weeks. I use that to dampen the soil when planting, too. Use tepid water, keep them nice and warm under a dome, as 402G says, 75F - 80F is ideal, 24 hours of light once they have those first two leaves, and mist them once or twice a day for a week. If you've done all that and still have an issue, I'd look at the soil. You can get a bag of promix seedling starter soil for about 6 bucks at home depot. Works great, no dikkin' around....


    420Grower is the king of this stuff. I'd listen to him


    Good luck!

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    Embryo

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    Points taken guys. I will heat the room and grab some starter soil next time I am out.

    Mr. Grimbo

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    Shadbot 4.20 Shadimar's Avatar

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    Maybe it's too acidic but you'll see it in the plants if it is, I've been recycling my soil for years so I'm not inclined to blame it without something to back it up.
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  11. #11
    Epic Genetics
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenMeds View Post
    Also don't feed them anything, except maybe some seaweed extract in the water for the first couple of weeks. I use that to dampen the soil when planting, too. Use tepid water, keep them nice and warm under a dome, as 402G says, 75F - 80F is ideal, 24 hours of light once they have those first two leaves, and mist them once or twice a day for a week. If you've done all that and still have an issue, I'd look at the soil. You can get a bag of promix seedling starter soil for about 6 bucks at home depot. Works great, no dikkin' around....


    420Grower is the king of this stuff. I'd listen to him


    Good luck!
    ever see things sprout in the SPRING , dunno why a good summer temp was brought up when most sprouts happen in the SPRING

    of 2 rooms and 3 strains 40 of each , one room upstairs high 70s - low 80s one room downstairs mid 60s to 70 , germ rate , survival rate , and growth has been the same

    just thought id mention these things , best of luck Mr. Grimbo

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    Vegetative Member GreenMeds's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epic Genetics View Post
    ever see things sprout in the SPRING , dunno why a good summer temp was brought up when most sprouts happen in the SPRING

    of 2 rooms and 3 strains 40 of each , one room upstairs high 70s - low 80s one room downstairs mid 60s to 70 , germ rate , survival rate , and growth has been the same

    just thought id mention these things , best of luck Mr. Grimbo
    Well what we do with these plants can hardly be characterized as mimicking nature, can it? What's the germ rate of Mother Nature in the spring? Of a thousand seeds that hit ground in the fall, how many root next spring? Not 100% I assure you. Yet that's what we're trying to achieve here, no? Maybe THAT is why warmer temps could be advantageous. Just saying.

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    Shadbot 4.20 Shadimar's Avatar

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    Well since we can't see them..

    What colour are they? And what shade, please
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  14. #14
    Embryo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadimar View Post
    Well since we can't see them..

    What colour are they? And what shade, please
    Again, I apologize for the no pics thing but it's not a decision I get to make by myself as it would of course involve other family members. Anyway, the color to me looks quite normal. Clear white healthy looking white tap roots although they are small. The fake leaves, and two or so sets of real leaves do look to be normal color and shape with no bad spots or disfigured/mis shaped leaves.

    Mr. Grimbo

  15. #15
    Epic Genetics
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenMeds View Post
    Well what we do with these plants can hardly be characterized as mimicking nature, can it? What's the germ rate of Mother Nature in the spring? Of a thousand seeds that hit ground in the fall, how many root next spring? Not 100% I assure you. Yet that's what we're trying to achieve here, no? Maybe THAT is why warmer temps could be advantageous. Just saying.
    but then we have the same person talking about the summer temps also talking about shortening thier lights on just like "Nature" , your posts sound contradicting now

    too warm is too warm, too cold is too cold, but there has been NO mention of too hot or cold, plants and trees do sprout in the spring, and unlike what you think, they do it with great success

    the temps Mr. Grimbo mention arent the issue, its soil or soil moisture imo, and claims of somone being a "king" do not help

  16. #16
    420grower
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    It seems these plants certainly grew from a seedling,we have been told they came up normal and then just stopped,if everything else is normal(color,shape and we have 3 leaf or the first 5 finger leaf,then temps are all that could be wrong,any nute or watering problems would show in leaf color,certainly in the root,which we also know is white and healthy.
    This is a no brainer for me,turn up the temps,and upward growth will continue.
    Oh and I'll take the praise anytime,maybe not the KING,but in the kings court for sure,lol

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    I'd put my money on temps.
    In my experience, during winter months and the temperature drops out of doors or is harder to control indoors and one may experience cooler indoor temps., I notice a slow down in growth. I aim for no lower than 70 with lights off and no higher than 80 with lights on in the grow/flower environments.
    That being said there is some good advice in this thread. Good trouble shooting.
    That young very light feeding, if at all. Seaweed suggestion was excellent advise and what I do.
    Neal.

  18. #18
    Vegetative Member GreenMeds's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epic Genetics View Post
    but then we have the same person talking about the summer temps also talking about shortening thier lights on just like "Nature" , your posts sound contradicting now
    You are confusing me with someone else. I commented on the gas lantern timing routine as something I am interested in, but only because it would save me hydro expense. I didn't offer an opinion as to the bold claims that it also beneficially affects the plant's hormones as would a naturally occurring, gradually reducing photoperiod brought about by the changing seasons, other than to have perhaps commented once or twice that it seems entirely reasonable.

    Happy to have cleared that up. Thanks, Epic Genetics.

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    Embryo

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    Ok, sounds like it must be temps so I am going to move the seedlings to a cabinet area motherroom where the environment is more controlled. Thanks.

    Mr. Grimbo

  20. #20
    Epic Genetics
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenMeds View Post
    You are confusing me with someone else. I commented on the gas lantern timing routine as something I am interested in, but only because it would save me hydro expense. I didn't offer an opinion as to the bold claims that it also beneficially affects the plant's hormones as would a naturally occurring, gradually reducing photoperiod brought about by the changing seasons, other than to have perhaps commented once or twice that it seems entirely reasonable.

    Happy to have cleared that up. Thanks, Epic Genetics.
    no no , no confussion , was talking about the person you worship as "king" and talking about you mentioning "Well what we do with these plants can hardly be characterized as mimicking nature" when your "king" constantly posts about doing such things because thats how nature does it

    my basement veg room is a pretty steady 65 (sometimes dropping to the high 50s) degrees in the winter months and the clones, seedlings, and plants dont slow down any noticable ammount (let alone die ) over the ones in the veg room upstairs that is in the high 70s

    i just switched the basement veg room from 20/4 to 24/0 because it hit the high 50s while lights out , but the 40 seedlings along with numerous clones and plants are all vegging and growing nicely

    can anyone tell me why my seedlings grow in these temps but Mr. Grimbo's dont

  21. #21
    420grower
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    Plant veg growth stops completely at 50 f,Every first year botany student knows that,why you post such silliness just to try to make a point is just nuts.If your not trying to create a natural environment inside then your just fooling around in my book,and that book is titled,K.I.S.S.,keep it simple stoner,lol,hell I might as well post my grows again,some folks just aren't getting it,lol

  22. #22
    Epic Genetics
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    Quote Originally Posted by 420grower View Post
    Plant veg growth stops completely at 50 f,Every first year botany student knows that,why you post such silliness just to try to make a point is just nuts.If your not trying to create a natural environment inside then your just fooling around in my book,and that book is titled,K.I.S.S.,keep it simple stoner,lol,hell I might as well post my grows again,some folks just aren't getting it,lol
    post silliness ? there is no silliness about it , my temps are what they are , and my plants including seedlings are growing just fine , if you want to post about someone posting "silliness" then maybe we should bring up your claims of 2 and even 4 ounces per plant when your pics CLEARLY show an ounce a piece AT BEST , or how about your claims of growing g13 in the early 80s (you must be REALLY conected or maybe you bred it)

    do not insult me ever again , you have no grounds for it
    Last edited by Epic Genetics; 01-24-2013 at 05:03 PM.

  23. #23
    Fat Girl Expert ROLNIK's Avatar

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    so,,, Grimbo man,,, I hear ya on the pics,,, the ones I put up are few and far between,,,, anyway,,,

    How reused is this soil,,,, did ya tryn use new,,, I mix the happy frog with the ocean forest,,, to keep the soil a lil less hot,,,, just a thot man,,,,

    Also My veg room is pretty cool also,,, kinda keeps my plants from strech'n to much,,, could be my imagination tho,,,, I do keep my clones that are tryn to root up around 80 tho,,,,

    It'll work for ya,,, just keep on'm man,,,,


    R

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    Shadbot 4.20 Shadimar's Avatar

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    He said high 50's, like the 58 and 59 degrees my flower tent gets during the winter dark phases (upside: it lets me run a clean kerosene heater for CO2)

    Something a little different: last spring came during winter, the maple trees in my back yard started protruding their new leaf buds.. and then winter came back. I watched with mild plant-horror over the next few weeks while these fresh buds were exposed to ice and snow, wondering if the tree had screwed itself over by releasing its leaves only to die.

    A month later it was making flowers and had a regular summer shielding me from the August rays. Some consider plants to be a lower for of life than animals, however plants routinely survive conditions that would kill any animal, us in particular.

    Back on topic, my only similar experience was with overly acidic generic mix that I bought as an alternative to Miracle Gro mix, MG would have been better. The problem was resolved by transplanting to other mix and liming the acidic mix with dolomite.
    Last edited by Shadimar; 01-25-2013 at 06:16 AM.
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  25. #25
    Vegetative Member GreenMeds's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadimar View Post
    ... plants routinely survive conditions that would kill any animal, us in particular..
    You make a very good point. I guess I was thinking more about thriving than surviving when I made my comment. What we try to achieve as growers is an optimizing of the plant's potential -- allowing it to achieve its full genetic potential. That is our goal. We do this by providing the very best growing conditions, once we figure out what those conditions are. As you pointed out, nature throws some serious curve balls, which serves well to cull the masses, strengthen genetic lines, etc. but this is not what we want in our gardens, obviously. We don't want to mimic that.

    I'm sure we've all had a plant or two that struggled to survive, yet we hung on to it and nurtured it along, knowing that it very likely would not have survived or produced without our help.

    So yes, it is important to understand and respect how plants have evolved to utilize the conditions they find themselves in, so as farmers we can exploit those qualities to our highest benefit. Not to make us feel like pimps, I'm sure the plants enjoy it, too

    That's the long way of saying that our end goal is to figure out what's best for the plant and give it as much of that as it can stand. Nature rarely provides such abundance.
    Last edited by GreenMeds; 01-25-2013 at 08:03 AM.

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