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  1. #1
    Epic Genetics
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    so i broke the bank and ordered over half the mns strains over the last year+
    every strain has proved to be hermie prone when other companies strains have not
    until growing most of mns's strains i hadnt encountered any constant hermies in years and infact when quite a few years without seeing a male flower on any plant other then a male
    ive witnessed a shockingly large number of people mention this at the mns site but i havent seen much of a response or support from the breeder other then him supplying replacement seeds

    what i fail to understand is how does supplying more hermie prone seeds solve anything ? why has the breeder not been involved in the discussions and tried to solve the issue ?

    and for that matter why is there hermie issues
    anyone else notice alarming hermie rates from mns seeds ?

  2. #2
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    Interesting.
    Imho, I've seen this with a few breeders now, once they start with the fem'd runs, and running auto's etc. it seems they can't keep it from spreading into thier "regular" seed supply, and in turn killing thier old lines.

    I used to have alot of respect for mns genes, and shanti's work.
    But when he tuned on his own word, and started utilizing the fem market with this cbd crew distraction nonsense I lost alot of that respect.
    So who kows maybe these guys are pissing away thier own lines for a quick buck.
    Wouldn't be th e1st breeder I've seen thier entire stock go fem all of a sudden for what seems like no other choice.
    If this is the case, hopefully it'll shift the market back when enough of them screw themselves into having to start all over, and reinvent thier gene banks, and brands.

    Sorry to hear about the issues.
    I'm sure buying that much of thier gear cost a pretty penny.
    I'd normally think it worth it for what mns genes used to be, but if this is a sign of thier future I'll have to reconsider forsure.

    I hope your nxt endevour turns out better.
    Good luck,...........................gps

  3. #3
    Embryo

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    I have MNS genetics and have ZERO issues whatsoever. They're my best strains for med purpose hands down.

    I also belong to the MNS Forums, and the "hermie issue" isn't a widespread problem. A few people are having issues, but it's not something that's "rampant" with this line. I've had herm issues with other breeders works, so I dont think it's a MNS issue specifically. Also, what I know of Shanti, he is nothing if not fair and accommodating...have you tried PM'ing him to try and address your issue?

    As far as the fem CBD-Crew stuff, that's an entirely different company, of which Shanti plays a part, yes, but it's an entirely separate venture for them. With collaborations, sometimes compromises have to be made to advance the greater good. They're trying to bring CBD rich genetics forward...the only seed breeder actively doing so...so that tells your something about their motives.

    I'm thankful that someone is trying to advance CBD strains, as people with diseases (like me!) have been GREATLY helped by CBD-rich Cannabis...it's done wonders for my disease...like nothing else I've tried before!

    Before their work, the only way for someone to get a CBD-rich strain was a) a lot of testing/growing/pheno identifying, b) getting lucky enough to find someone with CBD-rich clones for sale...so basically like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

    I for one give props to Shanti for his work with the CBD-Crew.
    CBD is for me!

  4. #4
    Seedling SSHZ's Avatar

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    I have generally had very good success with Shanti/Nevils stuff. I have 15 Ortegas in their 3rd week of veg. This is one of the strains that is producing a bad Hermie ratio. I am hoping to find 1 or 2 plants out of the 15 that are solid females to work with- I don't expect more........either way, Nevils started a thread on RIU a few weeks ago about the hermies and kind of wrote it off- like "what are u going to do"..........

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    Nothing will ruin a strain quicker! I refuse to fool with herm prone genetics, Kinda avoid em as if they had the plague.

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    Seedling SSHZ's Avatar

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    Well, I tend to agree but I owned the seeds already and had the space to flower them out. I plan on destroying each plant when and if I see male balls on it and hopefully I'll find something similar to what I read about. Nevil claims you'd be crazy not to grow these out and look thru the plants- by god, "It's Jim Ortega genetics"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Look him up if you don't recognize the name.

  7. #7
    Epic Genetics
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSHZ View Post
    Well, I tend to agree but I owned the seeds already and had the space to flower them out. I plan on destroying each plant when and if I see male balls on it and hopefully I'll find something similar to what I read about. Nevil claims you'd be crazy not to grow these out and look thru the plants- by god, "It's Jim Ortega genetics"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Look him up if you don't recognize the name.
    shantis ortega isnt related to jim ortega at all, spoke with shanti one time where shanti told me himself he was unaware jim ortega/dogless was even a breeder

    mns ortega is NL 1 X NL 5

    seen some grows without hermies so you might be surprised , pleasently of course

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    Seedling SSHZ's Avatar

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    Sorry, you are wrong. Here's Nevils recent post on RIU about it:

    " MNS Ortega


    ortega15 x ortega#3 given to Ed R by Nevil. Who only got two definitive ortega15 phenos out of 60 sensi mli beans, it is not particularly dominant but looks just like he first pic and exactly like the pic of the cola laying sideways that shanti posted beside the ortega description. It's Maple Leaf AfgT, which I crossed with Ort15 male which was also pure Maple Leaf. This was the most indica ML male. This male dominated most things it was put to. Because of this males dominance, you had to grow a few plants to find the AfgT type. It also didn't have the yield I wanted so I didn't release it then. SB was right to use this line as it is one of the few sources left of the Pure Maple Leaf. When it is crossed to an Indica/Sativa out of AfgT or it's sister AfgS, I'm expecting some extreme shit."

    And later in the forum, he adds:

    "The Maple Leaf came from a guy known to me as Jim Ortega. We traded seeds for a while. Not only did he supply me with Maple Leaf, but also Garlic Bud and Kush 4. The cannabis smoking world owes him a lot.
    The Maple Leaf line provided me with a plant that I labeled Afghan T. This plant is the mother of Super/Ultra Skunk and also crossed well with HzC. Kush 4, I crossed with NL2(which had the same Kush smell) and this Kush Hybrid is the foundation of todays Kush lines......Some of the AfgT and AfgS (ML) crosses with skunk went towards lemon. In particular AfgS. AfgT x Hz C also had haze lemonish phenos. It's well worth fishing in those lines..
    If u find it.....u know what to do."


    So, to add and clarify- Nevil got the Maple Leaf from Jim, which he then labeled Ortega. Todays Ortega that Shanti is selling is 1 pheno of Maple Leaf crossed with another. Shanti has recently posted that Ortega is actually NOT N.L.#1 X N.L. #5 on the Mr. Nice forum and Nevil clarified what it actually is in the above post.
    Last edited by SSHZ; 02-10-2013 at 01:30 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSHZ View Post
    Sorry, you are wrong. Here's Nevils recent post on RIU about it:

    " MNS Ortega


    ortega15 x ortega#3 given to Ed R by Nevil. Who only got two definitive ortega15 phenos out of 60 sensi mli beans, it is not particularly dominant but looks just like he first pic and exactly like the pic of the cola laying sideways that shanti posted beside the ortega description. It's Maple Leaf AfgT, which I crossed with Ort15 male which was also pure Maple Leaf. This was the most indica ML male. This male dominated most things it was put to. Because of this males dominance, you had to grow a few plants to find the AfgT type. It also didn't have the yield I wanted so I didn't release it then. SB was right to use this line as it is one of the few sources left of the Pure Maple Leaf. When it is crossed to an Indica/Sativa out of AfgT or it's sister AfgS, I'm expecting some extreme shit."

    And later in the forum, he adds:

    "The Maple Leaf came from a guy known to me as Jim Ortega. We traded seeds for a while. Not only did he supply me with Maple Leaf, but also Garlic Bud and Kush 4. The cannabis smoking world owes him a lot.
    The Maple Leaf line provided me with a plant that I labeled Afghan T. This plant is the mother of Super/Ultra Skunk and also crossed well with HzC. Kush 4, I crossed with NL2(which had the same Kush smell) and this Kush Hybrid is the foundation of todays Kush lines......Some of the AfgT and AfgS (ML) crosses with skunk went towards lemon. In particular AfgS. AfgT x Hz C also had haze lemonish phenos. It's well worth fishing in those lines..
    If u find it.....u know what to do."


    So, to add and clarify- Nevil got the Maple Leaf from Jim, which he then labeled Ortega. Todays Ortega that Shanti is selling is 1 pheno of Maple Leaf crossed with another. Shanti has recently posted that Ortega is actually NOT N.L.#1 X N.L. #5 on the Mr. Nice forum and Nevil clarified what it actually is in the above post.
    actually shanti says nl1 X nl 5, its other people claiming otherwise, go check it out at MNS not RIU, with all due respect to the few exceptions, RIU is a joke, the worst case of the blind leading the blind i have ever seen, and that counts towards anything in life, not just growing

    one of them are lieing then from what you are saying, but who ? nevil or shanti ? my bet is both

    once you spend time conversing with nevil you will learn to take things said with a grain of salt trust me i had an inbox full of private convos with the man that went on for over a year

    go pm shanti at his site and show him what nevil is claiming and ask him to tell you the truth of what HIS ortega is, until then i will believe what he has told me and his members, after all, he bred it not nevil, not saying nevil wasnt involved with the parent plants though

  10. #10
    Seedling SSHZ's Avatar

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    Sorry again. Shanti recently admitted Ortega was NOT N.L. 1 X 5 on his forum. It took some prodding, but it came with some long explanation about "being easier just to call it that"..... I hear what u are saying, but Nevil has made the same claim on numerous sites now and I believe his recent explanation to be the truth. Actually, to me, I could care less- I'm just looking for a potent, hermie free female and I have read great things about Ortega if you can get passed the male bananas and hermie issues. Lastly, this is what happens when you ask people who have been smoking strong pot for 35 years......... a different story for each day of the week. Their memory on the facts is weak at best.

  11. #11
    Epic Genetics
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSHZ View Post
    Sorry again. Shanti recently admitted Ortega was NOT N.L. 1 X 5 on his forum. It took some prodding, but it came with some long explanation about "being easier just to call it that"..... I hear what u are saying, but Nevil has made the same claim on numerous sites now and I believe his recent explanation to be the truth. Actually, to me, I could care less- I'm just looking for a potent, hermie free female and I have read great things about Ortega if you can get passed the male bananas and hermie issues. Lastly, this is what happens when you ask people who have been smoking strong pot for 35 years......... a different story for each day of the week. Their memory on the facts is weak at best.
    so i just went to RIU and now have doubts that that was even nevil , for one he spells it nevil on sites, and 2, every word written there is a copy n paste from what nevil has said/typed at mns WORD FOR WORD, go look, read all nevils posts, you will see what im talking about

    as for shanti saying what you claim, go find it and quote it please, i was also a part of the discussion and didnt see shanti say that HIMSELF, i did however see others say it

  12. #12
    Zygote

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    Hi all I'm new here but just wanted to put in my two cents on this, for what it's worth...plants that tend to go hermie a lot are usually feminized seeds by certain breeders that didn't use a large enough pool of plants to choose phenotypes or did not run enough stable backcrosses...word to the wise stick to regular seeds, feminized are tempting and have their own place in things but crosses and hybrids made the good old fashioned way have less of a tendency for inbreeding and therefore less hermies....nothing worse then having a hermie in your room that goes unnoticed and you end up with seeds in your entire harvest....if you have the patience use regular seed, you can still come across hermies but no were near as often

  13. #13
    Epic Genetics
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    ive got a few quotes and tidbits i saved ,,,,,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by Nevil View Post
    Ortega and NL lines are unrelated.
    To be honest, I can't remember exactly which father was used in the bulk of the seeds.
    NL2x Sams Afghan was one, Ortega x Sams Afg was another, both were later substituted with a son of Garlic bud for better yield (NL2xGarlic?).
    I'll give you the tip that the quality came from the mother.
    N.
    http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/83607-post527.html

    ================================================== ===============

    Originally Posted by shantibaba
    HI all

    well Ortega was based on work from Neville and was a selection of an afghan which was also known Northern Lights 1. It was then consumed under the Sensi seeds label when Neville sold it.Breeder Steve made a selection of his version and it was a good plant.

    I am using the old seed from 1987 of Nev, not a big selection came up but was a quality strain and full of excellent stable phenotypes. It is not an F1 seed but an inbreed line and after the selection work parts of it are being used in other hybrids and research work.

    It tends to flower bwteen 6-8 weeks at 12/12, and enjoys a strong feeding regime. Unlike the large colas of flower clusters it produces flowers up the stem of medium size but density is on its side.

    More in the medicinal range of plants for those with muscular tension disorders and for those who need to stimulate appetite and sleep...as far as i am concerned. But we can add to it everybody who does a thread to get a better over view....hope that helps a little Sb

    ================================================== ================

    Hi All

    well i am working and doing my best to answer important things on the forum but have limited time daily so do what I can do.
    I understand that genetics are important to you all and me, but I do feel all the information about a certain genre of strains may be confusing.
    I have given the descriptions like i always have and some wish for more clarity. While it is of no real importance except curiosity, I do try to explain things and what I did for the majority. It does seem sufficient most the time, but there are several people who wish for further information...for what ever reason. I can only write down the original labels i used if i did not pick the seed myself and since i used some old seed of Nevil in selection I used his labels to be correct with the origins.
    Companies like Dutch passion or Spice of life also made Ortega, and did their own versions...quoting the parents. So maybe research history of the strain as well as just quoting what you think or heard from others. If I begin a description saying it is my version from Nevil old seed...well that is what it is. Grow the seed or do not...up to you in the end as really people can write what they think it is but if it came from someone else then ultimately the ones who passed it on created these questions. I did a version called it Ortega, and it is clear the origins...knowing who is the mother and father is really not going to change things imo . I will simplify strain descriptions eventually but it is not really incorrect information ...just my selections of seed from others who feel it was something else...so i am in no way hiding anything, if anything I am clarifying as much as i can.
    So please do not get too finicky about things that cannot really be changed as this is what they are according to my understanding, knowledge and selection. Leaving a list of things like people have will be easier for me to edit or ammend, that helps. Speculation about what it is meant to be is just speculation in the end and acts to confuse people more than it helps. In the end most companies do not tell their origins as they do not really know them since they relied on different people to collect or pass it on...so it is all just a guide in the end as Cannabis has never been an exact science in the past.

    Private growers and breeders contribute to genetic lines as much as seed companies. Nevil received seeds that were handed over with a so called story, but he could never really be sure of the history until he popped them and saw for himself or collected them from the plants himself. Many lines apparently we lost and only in seed form...so assuming things to be correct from his initial descriptions could also cause discrepancies if one is to be too puristic in approach. Let me ask you do feminized seed companies get asked the father of the breeds , or is it irrelevant! But at some stage the strain must have had 2 parents...my bet is most do not know anything about origins or at best guess or rely on companies like MNS as we still work breeding not only in seed production.

    We are humans doing a job most others rely on, and do it to our best. Sorry for those who feel something was done intentionally wrong, but it was not. As for those who wish to figure out things for themselves buy the seed versions from all the companies and see for yourself what is what and whos description fit their products...it is the simpliest way.All the best sb

    http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/173433-post95.html

    ================================================== =========

    and finally, from shantis own strains page,,,,,,

    Ortega was originally made a little different from Nevil when he was doing his Seedbank thing with Sensi...Shantibaba made a selection from an old school set of seeds that originated from NL#1 and NL#5...from mid 80s. It is expected to keep a good Christmas tree structure in growth and flowers in 6-8 weeks, giving strong fruity, deep berry flavors . It is an excellent all round effect and acts for many like a night medicine. Aids sleep disorders well and muscular conditions...a must try.

    http://mrnice.nl/dhtml/strains.php?id=60

    ================================================== ========

  14. #14
    Epic Genetics
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master deems View Post
    Hi all I'm new here but just wanted to put in my two cents on this, for what it's worth...plants that tend to go hermie a lot are usually feminized seeds by certain breeders that didn't use a large enough pool of plants to choose phenotypes or did not run enough stable backcrosses...word to the wise stick to regular seeds, feminized are tempting and have their own place in things but crosses and hybrids made the good old fashioned way have less of a tendency for inbreeding and therefore less hermies....nothing worse then having a hermie in your room that goes unnoticed and you end up with seeds in your entire harvest....if you have the patience use regular seed, you can still come across hermies but no were near as often
    it matters not if they are fems or regs, it comes down to stress testing and selections NOT being done by the breeders, hermies and bad hermie prone genetics were around LONG before people started releasing fems, not saying some breeders didnt give fems a bad name by selling hermie prone crap, but i am saying the fems themselves are not the issue, the breeders are, fems done properly do not hermie and of the few that might it is not because they are fems

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    Shadbot 4.20 Shadimar's Avatar

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    Good female genes should produce good female fems, I just ran out of a fem cross I did in '06 that was very reliable, 7 years and hundreds of seeds with consistent performance sans nanners.

    However.. I think too many fem seed makers are just grabbing two nice looking plants and picking one to spray with silver. Now the weaker genes are forced into female seeds and plants that by all natural rights should have been guys are forced into a dress wearing a beard.

    So with all the people just grabbing plants and charging up the for the beans, I find myself wary of fem seeds and the offspring of fem x regular beans as I've found too many pollen incidents in the offspring of fem seeds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadimar View Post
    Good female genes should produce good female fems, I just ran out of a fem cross I did in '06 that was very reliable, 7 years and hundreds of seeds with consistent performance sans nanners.

    However.. I think too many fem seed makers are just grabbing two nice looking plants and picking one to spray with silver. Now the weaker genes are forced into female seeds and plants that by all natural rights should have been guys are forced into a dress wearing a beard.

    So with all the people just grabbing plants and charging up the for the beans, I find myself wary of fem seeds and the offspring of fem x regular beans as I've found too many pollen incidents in the offspring of fem seeds.
    all comes down to the breeder, or should i say pollin chuckers claiming to be breeders, they screw up a good thing giving fems and other breeders a bad name

    its like i mentioned in the coloidial silver tutorial

    PLEASE TEST YOUR FEMALES BEFORE BREEDING WITH THEM

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    Zygote

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    Epic, I agree with you yo an extent but females that have been stressed one way or the other are always going to be prone to varying degrees to go hermie, it's in the genetic makeup of the plant itself as a means of continuing the species.
    Now the other things you say I agree with wholeheartedly but IMO when breeders do not use enough plants to breed so they can breed out any hermie prone plants there will be hermies in the seeds, especially when selfed pollen.

  18. #18
    Epic Genetics
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    what your saying isnt different then what im saying, its just said differently

    no selection and testing done

    all it takes is one stable female, clone her, use one clone to reverse and pollinate 10, 50, 1000 of her sister clones

    hermies are not caused due to fems, they are there already, its up to the breeders to work with genetics that are not hermie prone, fems or regs

    if you know you can trust your breeder there is no reason to worry about what you in turn breed with, although i still advise you stress test everything first

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    Fat Girl Expert ROLNIK's Avatar

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    So,, I got a question for you guys,,,,, keep in mind tho,,,, I ,,, Know,,, Nutting,,,,, so I hope I get it rite,,,,

    If ya have a plant,,, and its not prone to hermi,,,no hermies for say 5 crops,, if you do something to cause it to herm,,, do all subsequent cuts,,, taken from that female now,,, be more apt to herm,,,, from that point fwd?
    example: if ya take 2 cuts from each plant on their way to flower(er just after) you don't keep mother plants,,,, one plant was stressed,,, for what ever reason,,, it later caused that plant to herm in flower,,,, all the cuts from that particular plant ,,,,will in the future be prone to herm,,, also,,, meaning you now have two clones rooting,,,,,that will also be prone to herm,,,,?
    shit I hope I got that right,,,,
    thx


    R

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    Epic Genetics
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    Quote Originally Posted by ROLNÍK View Post
    So,, I got a question for you guys,,,,, keep in mind tho,,,, I ,,, Know,,, Nutting,,,,, so I hope I get it rite,,,,

    If ya have a plant,,, and its not prone to hermi,,,no hermies for say 5 crops,, if you do something to cause it to herm,,, do all subsequent cuts,,, taken from that female now,,, be more apt to herm,,,, from that point fwd?
    example: if ya take 2 cuts from each plant on their way to flower(er just after) you don't keep mother plants,,,, one plant was stressed,,, for what ever reason,,, it later caused that plant to herm in flower,,,, all the cuts from that particular plant ,,,,will in the future be prone to herm,,, also,,, meaning you now have two clones rooting,,,,,that will also be prone to herm,,,,?
    shit I hope I got that right,,,,
    thx


    R
    if i understand you then yes, and you wouldnt wanna breed with a cut from her either

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    Shadbot 4.20 Shadimar's Avatar

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    I don't think it would be any more likely to herm in the future, more that you've driven its genetics to the point of failure and discovered what was always there.
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    Fat Girl Expert ROLNIK's Avatar

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    thx guys,,,

    R

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    Seedling Big Sky's Avatar

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    I grew some medicine man years ago from MNS-
    ended up being some 15 week flowering Brazilian sativa that shot pink hairs all over- I hated it and it was hermie city-
    all of them and it was reg sed- 5 pk

    I really dont understand how the big breeders with all those resources and funding, space etc screw this up so bad -

    I can use a simple sealed 3x3 tent and isolate several selections from a large group in there , then pollinate-

    One good selection can produce a thousand seeds-
    lol

    I guess thats what happens when the money gets to be so much the passion for the product goes out the window-
    Sad!
    Big Sky
    Sour Seed Co.

  24. #24
    Seedling organic in ottawa's Avatar

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    mmmmmmmmmmm garlic bud.
    anyone still have this gem?
    oio

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    Seedling SSHZ's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Sky View Post
    I grew some medicine man years ago from MNS-
    ended up being some 15 week flowering Brazilian sativa that shot pink hairs all over- I hated it and it was hermie city-
    all of them and it was reg sed- 5 pk

    I really dont understand how the big breeders with all those resources and funding, space etc screw this up so bad -

    I can use a simple sealed 3x3 tent and isolate several selections from a large group in there , then pollinate-

    One good selection can produce a thousand seeds-
    lol

    I guess thats what happens when the money gets to be so much the passion for the product goes out the window-
    Sad!
    I grew a room full of Medicine Man about 4 years ago and it was some of the best weed I've done in years. It yielded very heavy, was incredibly sticky, strong and potent and not a hermie in sight. I grew out 20 plants after they declared their sex, topped them once, and flowered for about 67 days. A great strain, at least back then.

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