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  1. #1
    A true Cannaseur! Subcool's Avatar

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    Exclamation Breeding 101 Subs Method

    Lets take a look at Breeding a Strain.

    There are many schools of thought on this one many like A/B hybe and STP feel that using STS to reverse a clone and create a stress herm to out cross with or in Soma’s case he uses clones that have very late male flowers or naners. Don’t think we can’t do this JC and OV get these after day 60 so it’s not magic and I love Soma but IMO it’s the easy way out. My mom always told me anything worth doing is worth doing correctly. I feel the male is essential in the proper breeding of any hybrid and when working with 4-6 Elite mothers and fathers from the same genetic pool you get the magic island effect or the Galapagos theory. This is my own and in isolation with inter breeding among special hybrids can crate magic. Look at the amazing colorful birds on isolated island that did not get a chance to breed with the dull and or ordinary but instead the extraordinary. Got it?

    Lets look at some pictures that I have yet to see other Established breeders post.

    Selecting Sputnik for back crossing in these pictures

    When cubing a strain it is important to start with a mom you know is very stable, with stands stress and shock well, is a strain you absolutly love and in my case I have cracked over 3000 seeds so I think I have a decent eye for what at least pleases me.

    Its really simple, I collect the best females from all the seeds I run. Over the years I have collected some really amazing plants like Apollo-13, Jacks Cleaner, Killer Queen, Space Queen, lavender, and others. When a female comes along thats better someone has to go this way the genetic pool always gets better working towards the traits I want in my medicine!

    Were going to look at the breeding of Sputnik thats Apoll0-13 X Black Russian and the results were so good we made the cover of Big book of Buds 3 with her. Lets check out how we did it Subcool 12/6/06
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    Subcool Genetic Support

    Subcool is the author of Dank: The Quest for the Very Best Marijuana

  2. #2
    A true Cannaseur! Subcool's Avatar

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    Default Open Door Breeding

    Now we do not work with thousands of plants but this is far from breeding in a trailer bathroom with 1 male and 1 female with plants covered in mites ( yes a fairly reputable breeder created a well known strain under these conditions)

    Lets look at the proper way to select.



    So we really are passionate about this stuff and our goal is to make better genetics for US to enjoy the fact we make enough for others is what we call down south gravy. Now that we have started helping the medical community the mission has become so much more heart felt. We have met so many friends that we simply give seeds to and hear later how much better there quality of life has become after adding our ressesive drug trait strains into the favorite baked goods.

    Once we run these and do our selecting we move them into our breeding area. Its very important to have perfect control of your environment and a nice water proof area to be able to wash down once pollen is distributed.
    This was one of our better locations with natural light and humidity control and a wet deck with full exposure to water.
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    Subcool Genetic Support

    Subcool is the author of Dank: The Quest for the Very Best Marijuana

  3. #3
    A true Cannaseur! Subcool's Avatar

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    Default Apollo

    So simplified Dank X Dank can make danker

    Lets look at Apollo-13 and I will get into how to outcross.

    Soul claims only 500 of these seeds were ever produced and the owners of the few females cuts to survive are somewhat of a cult. I created some waves when we first used her in a breeding project but after awhile it was ok as most remembered they didn’t breed her just find her and I am making her available again to the masses.
    One of my favorite plants to smoke is A-13 it is very motivational and has a very unique flavor. Now outcrossing this amazing strain was sacrilege to many of my older grow buddies ad I was actually disowned by a large portion of my peers for working with the A-13. Not of these ijits actually had a hand in creating the strain there main concern IMO was letting a cash plant hit the public. They would argue its about preserving the original genetics, well guess what I sent the clone far and wide to friends and it is preserved for good!

    So what now? I have been growing this same clone for some 8 years and its so stable it’s crazy never seen a herm flower or any problems she will shift in and out of bud pretty easy and is easy to clone. She ships well to.

    This is the strain I choose to work with for the last few years and into the future.
    A trully amazing find.

    I think its a good start.


    So we out cross A-13 to Black Russian
    So we now had a Purple plant that I loved the looks the flavor even the buzz in the mornings. Black Russian even has scissor goo that looks like grape taffy. The problem is I am known for devastating potency and incredible raised trichomes. Now if you follow us at all you know I think Grimm’s Apollo-13 is the cure all to lack of potency and so far I have been absolutely correct. So we take a male using our same criteria with a new twist, we budded all the males out and selected the one with the most purple coloring. Now we can have a month long discussion on botany and argue if this works or not or like we did make it and grow it out and see what happens.

    Tips for Breeding
    At the time of germination are there any capitate trichomes on the cotyldon leaves?

    Number and frequency of non-glandular trichomes..this can be a great indicator of future glandular production.

    vigor is not an issue. hybrid vigor can mask many traits good and bad. good even growth is what I look for

    the earliest males to show sex get tossed..no ifs and s or buts. dominant males are useless for drug (misuse of this rule has caused more hermie strains than the world deserves)cannabis. do not confuse early sex signs with early maturation the two are not linked. by this time I should be down to two or three prime candidates


    Since this post was originally made many people have grown out the sputnik 1.0 I feel we must post up some pictures of her from there gardens so you can see the amazing results.
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    Subcool Genetic Support

    Subcool is the author of Dank: The Quest for the Very Best Marijuana

  4. #4
    A true Cannaseur! Subcool's Avatar

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    Default We did good

    Thanks to all for blowing my mind with something I had a hand in.


    Thanks Iteachyourkids and OBSoul33te
    OB's was featured in Heads strain of the month this month!

    I didn't learn this shit overnight..it took years of sifting through research, books, interviews and about twenty years of growing pot. Recessive males are the key to improving drug strains. Shanti uses them, nevil did it and sensi continues to use the same techniques. Dominant males will induce ploidy shift after a number of generations causing many hermaphrodites. Hermaphrodism is a dominant trait in cannabis. you might be able to cover it up in an f1 through hybrid vigor, but subsequent generations will really tell you what the breeder was up to.

    in the wild, the early males always win the breeding contest. without proper selection according to RC Clarke, these early males cause "acclimitization" of the variety. and a decrease in drug quality. this is the "dominant" state of cannabis. if it were otherwise, why would we need breeders? all you would have to do is let the plants do there own thing and they would become more potent over time, but they don't. the only way drug varieites ever get better is through human intervention in the natural order

    he best wild pot cannot even come close to the best cultivated variety for drug production. that's the basis for using recessive plants for drug production.


    The typical way to begin a breeding program is to carefully select P1 parents of pure Sativa and pure Indica, crossing them to produce an f1 hybrid that is uniform in its phenotypic growth patterns. The next step is the crossing of the f1 type with itself, which produces a very wide variation witnessed in the f2 growth patterns and expressions.

    It is in this f2 second-generational cross and beyond that the art of selection really comes into play. There are a number of factors to consider at this point, such as what the male and female will each contribute; and most of all, what will the overall quality of the finished product be like?

    Defining a goal and constructing a plan to accomplish it is called "top-down" programming, and this "top-down" approach applies well to cannabis breeding. It helps considerably to have a specific goal in mind when attempting to selectively breed a variety of ganja. This simple fact I cannot emphasize enough.

    One must at least have an idea of what one is aiming for before beginning. For me this has little to do with plant structure and much to do with the quality of the finished product, no matter what form it is in. Having an experienced and educated palate (both mentally aesthetic and physically discernable) is key in the art of breeding fine quality cannabis.
    The indoor grow environment is too generic to fully replicate the great old legends. Therefore, it was necessary to settle for the next best thing: happy Sativa/Indica crosses that would perform well indoors

    And Outdoors!!
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    Subcool Genetic Support

    Subcool is the author of Dank: The Quest for the Very Best Marijuana

  5. #5
    A true Cannaseur! Subcool's Avatar

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    Default If It was easy everyone would do it.

    So now I have an established dank color strain but I am more intrigued with the Whitey genetics. We crack a load of Sputnik 1 and select a male that does not have any purple traits visible. We later learned it was still passed on but in smaller percentages. The coolest thing is Apollo-13 taken late past 65 days gets color as well!

    Check out the Purple Seeded Pods


    Obviously, you seek the parents that will produce the desired progeny. Paradoxically, this process requires selecting the best after they've been harvested. The solution is to keep samples from each plant of a test crop. This can be done via rooted clones from earlier cuttings, or re-greened mothers and fathers kept in a vegetative state and a high-nitrogen diet. Once you have chosen among the harvested plants, you can use the rooted cuttings for future consideration and possible breeding.

    Pollen may also be gathered and immediately stored via vacuum sealing and deep-freezing. It is crucial to vacuum seal and freeze pollen immediately after it is collected and to use stored pollen immediately after it thaws. Dry seeds also store well over indefinite periods of time in an undisturbed deep-freeze, with some desiccant.

    This process of post-harvest selection works fine for selecting desired female plants. But what about males? What is the best and most simple way to select males for breeding? Due to the fact that it is the female plants that we are ultimately familiar with, selecting males is a bit more involved.

    The process is basically the same as it is with female plants, except with males the numbers are first limited down via a process of elimination, and selections made by comparing the remainder. Selecting males also takes a little more time initially as the quality of the male is not fully determined until after the seeds it produces are grown out and tested. As one becomes more familiar with a particular strain, the specific characteristics of the desirable males become apparent.

    Ideally, the more seeds one starts with the better. This is, after all, a numbers game. I will assume that any basic breeding project starts with at least 20 different plants, from 20 viable seeds of high quality, professionally stabilized varieties. This would give a minimum of 10 male and 10 female plants hopefully sexed by two weeks into a flowering light cycle (short day/long night).

    Once sexed, the process of elimination may begin. All of the females are kept and regularly examined to prevent unwanted hermaphroditism. Unwanted males and all hermaphrodites must be eliminated before they begin to shed pollen – usually by the third week in the flowering cycle. The female plants need to be checked for hermaphroditism until harvest.
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    Subcool Genetic Support

    Subcool is the author of Dank: The Quest for the Very Best Marijuana

  6. #6
    leroy
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    Default

    Very good information. Thanks... ;-)

  7. #7
    A true Cannaseur! Subcool's Avatar

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    Default Breeding Better Cannabis Part 1

    Creating Better Cannabis
    Many people collect things as a hobby, we are no different except we collect “Elite strains of Cannabis” usually in clone-only format. In the last 25 years I have collected and grown-out hundreds of strains. I have traveled to Holland and attended the Cannabis Cup, 7 times. I’ve also lived in Amsterdam. One thing I believe is that the best Cannabis in the world is still in North America, in some unknown garden and belongs to someone without internet access. We have been lucky enough to collect some amazing examples. Some of my all time favorites are Genius and Apollo-13 by Brothers Grimm, also Killer Queen and Space Queen by Vic High. Our most potent strain is Jack’s Cleaner, a Pluton X LambsBread X Purple Haze freak, which can literally make a non-grower puke if they’re not used to her brutal raw potency. We call it the “they’re coming to take me away” stone. Now, MzJill and I continue this tradition working as a team. She has some of her own favorites as well. The Black Russian strain that gives all of our Sputnik crosses their insane purple coloring came from MzJill via Nebu. Over the past 5 years we have worked with these crosses to create new and interesting varieties. MzJill comes up with her own crosses using her favorites and even helps me pollinate when the males are ready. We grow in 100% organic soil mix I prepare myself using potting soil, bat guano, worm castings, and other natural soil builders. We feel the biosynthesis that takes place in soil adds something that cannot be measured. We use 10 gallon containers so the roots have lots of room. We would like to share with you a little of what goes into breeding a new strain.
    Breeding has many complexities that I won’t begin to try and explain here today. But I think our main goal was very simple, to combine an extremely potent “Sativa hybrid” with a “heavy yielding, ultra purple strain”. The results would be a purple strain with the potency added from that parent. What gets tricky is many strains like G-13 are extremely dominant and can take over a cross. When you cross BlueBerry and G-13, usually you just make a nasty tasting, watered down version of both. This doesn’t mean that there are not good Blueberry G-13 crosses; its just breeding is not as easy as 2+2=4. There is also a big difference between “breeders” and “seed makers”. Anyone can take a male and pollinate a female. This is not breeding; it is making copies with large variations. Again if they’re sold cheap, a winner can still be found if enough seeds are grown out. The difference is the selection process of the parent strains.
    The Momma’s and The Poppa’s
    Selection of the mother plant (or P1) was easy, Apollo-13 is in the top 3 of my favorite strains and I think it may be the most unique strain we have. Blending potency and a bizarre putrid-rotting-fruit smell, that make it a one of a kind. Selection of a male Black Russian was not as easy. The first mistake people make in selecting a male is by choosing the most vigorous. Remember those complexities I mentioned earlier? Well, the recessive drug traits we seek are stashed away in non-vigorous males. Think about the plant in the wild, the natural progression of Cannabis is back to Hemp. The drugs strains we have today are a direct result of human intervention. Robert Clark says it better “In the wild, the early males always win the breeding contest. Without proper selection, these early males cause "acclimatization" of the variety, and a decrease in drug quality. This is the "dominant" state of Cannabis. If it were otherwise, why would we need breeders? All you would have to do is let the plants do their own thing and they would become more potent over time, but they don't. The only way drug varieties ever get better is through human intervention in the natural order.”
    So, in order to find these recessive traits we choose males based loosely on the following. At time of germination are there any capitate trichomes on the cotyledon leaves? The number and frequency of non-glandular trichomes; this can be a great indicator of future glandular production. The earliest males to show sex get tossed, no ifs ands or buts. Dominant males are useless for drug (misuse of this rule has caused more hermaphrodite strains than the world deserves) Cannabis. If these basics are followed during each male selection process, then this gives us a much better chance of finding the genes we want. This is not meant to be a guide for anyone, just a basic explanation of what a “Cannabis Breeder” looks for when selecting strains to work with and/or improve upon.
    Sometimes taste is the desired goal or maybe potency. I have taken cherry flavored Ortega and crossed it with Killer Queen to create a cherry phenotype called Danny Boy. Danny Boy is done in 48 days and the taste is like cherry candy. The famed Jack’s Cleaner was crossed with a BlueBerry to create Batgirl and then JCB males from that cross have created entire seed companies. Our JCB male has blue pollen sacs and drips with resin.
    Also in the works is an Orange Velvet X Space Queen that will be our first Pineapple-Orange offering. This is MzJill’s creation so we have named it JillyBean. Orange Velvet is a PNW strain obtained from “some Hippies” as the story goes. Our goal is to create bad ass strains that we want to grow out and smoke ourselves. Once breeding pairs are selected then they are sent to BadBoy or SunyCheba, to replicate successful crosses or create insane new things like Suny’s Floater (Flo X JCB) and BadBoy’s Astro Boy (Apollo-13 X Ortega C99).


    Sputnik 1.0
    Once we had the Black Russian X Apollo-13 cross complete we gave it a name. Sputnik seemed like a logical selection and I think you can see we were beyond successful. We grew-out several seeds and we found that basically, we get two different phenotypes. The first is an eye-candy lady that you see so much of, starting with pink calyx and just oozing resin; we knew instantly we had achieved our desired results. Smelling like Blackberry jam and swelling to a wonderful large cola-covered-THC-factory. I will never tire of photographing this girl. At 4 weeks the pink stared changing to a magenta color and even the trichomes took on a pink to purple coloring. This particular phenotype, we gave the name Pinky. The other phenotype (Whitey) was a surprise to me and also a valuable learning experience! Whitey exhibited no purple coloring in fact the plant was ultra-white and during flowering, she almost smelled like a “blue cream soda”. As the plant matured it took on a weird pungent smell and before it cured out a bit, MzJill and I both thought it smelled pretty foul. After about two weeks of curing I decided to give it another chance and it knocked my socks off. A grower friend, who sampled it, said it almost gave her visuals. So we knew the cross had potential. Now how to improve on her again?
    Back Crossing
    The concept of back crossing, again is simple in theory, you only pollinate to your P1 mother plant using sibling male offspring. Selecting a male from the Sputnik 1.0 cross we then pollinated the Apollo-13 sugar mom, using a male selected by the criteria explained above. The first cross can be explained as a 50/50 and the second a 25/75 with 75% of her make up coming from the Apollo-13 mother. That 75% cross, or Sputnik 2.0, is now complete and ready for the final stage. The seeds arrived at Dr Chronic’s on 4/20, and are now available to the public. The great thing about using this breeding method is you don’t have to stop at 3 crosses; you can always do it again and see what happens. We have a different plan though. Once Sputnik 3.0 is complete, we will then grow out 100 seeds and select 10 males and 10 females. The best will be used to create “Cubed” Apollo-13; these seeds will be stable and extremely valuable representing thousands of hours of work. These seeds can be used to create true breeding IBL’s, or used to find more P1’s for future breeders to incorporate into there genetic pool. TGA and Subcool will continue to strive for the best in new crosses and the search for recessive genetics. Subcool, MzJill, SunyCheba, and BadBoy aka The Green Avenger, can be found on Breedbay in the TGA forum. Subcool also offers Seed support at:
    www.breedbay.co.uk
    www.cannaseur.com

    (This was Jills Idea)
    P1-The name of the parent to which a hybrid is crossed in a backcross.
    F2- generation : The progeny resulting from self hybridization or inbreeding of F1 individuals is called Second Filial or F2 generation.
    F1- generation : The progeny produced from a cross between two parents (P1) is called First Filial or F1 generation.
    inbred line- (IBL) - A line produced by at least five generations of sequential inbreeding, self fertilization or backcrossing accompanied by selection within and between lines so that the individuals are considered to be homozygous, or nearly so.
    Homozygous - An individual possessing (receiving from parents) identical alleles for a trait is said to be homozygous or pure for that trait, e.g. plant with RR alleles is homozygous for the seed shape. A homozygous always breeds true for that trait.
    Phenotype - The external (morphological) appearance of an individual for any trait or traits is called the phenotype, e.g. for seeds, round shape or wrinkled shape is the phenotype
    Capitate-Botany: forming a head like mass or dense cluster, as the flowers of plants in the composite family. Enlarged and globular at the tip.
    Dominant - said of an allele which by itself alone will produce a particular phenotype regardless of which other allele may be present on the other matching chromosome of the diploid pair; thus it takes only one copy of the chromosome to cause a dominant trait to be expressed in the phenotype.
    Genome - the total genetic information possessed by an individual, a breed or a species.
    Genotype - the invisible genetic makeup of an individual organism, which includes alleles which may be recessive and therefore have no visible physical expression.


    Sputnik 2.0 from the field
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    Subcool Genetic Support

    Subcool is the author of Dank: The Quest for the Very Best Marijuana

  8. #8
    A true Cannaseur! Subcool's Avatar

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    Default Recessivecombination

    A word needs to be said about the not-too-common probabilities of what I generally refer to as a recessive combination phenomenon. Sometimes, though not often, two parents that appear to express a common desirable trait – let's say a sweet/fruity bouquet – are crossed and the progeny do not express the desirable trait.

    This usually means that one or both parents possessed some sort of recessive alleles in their genotype for this characteristic. But it could also mean that the progeny had a different environment that the parents.

    If environment can be ruled out then it is likely that some sort of a genetic recessive combination is the cause. If none of the progeny express the desired characteristic one may want to cross the progeny with itself and see what the outcome is.

    If a common "Punnet ratio" such as 25% of a progeny express the desirable trait, then the trait is more than likely recessive and the trait may be stabilized via crossing any two of the 25% (or whatever common ratio) that show the desired trait with each other. This process is time consuming and is generally followed only if no other alternatives exist.


    I generally employ a simple process of elimination while selecting males. First, any auto-flowering or very early-declared males are eliminated. (Auto-flowering means that male flowers form regardless of light cycle timing.) This is mainly to insure against hermaphroditism or unwanted flowering traits, but also as a means to insure quality. The very early declared males have a tendency to be less desirable in terms of their contributions to the quality of the finished product. (If you are trying to specifically create an early-flowering strain, then your priorities may be different.)

    Next, any male plant that grows too tall or too fast is usually eliminated. The reason for this is that most plants which dedicate so much energy to fiber production generally are best for making fiber. The exception to this rule is when an over-productive plant also exhibits a number of the desirable characteristics mentioned later.
    The next criteria for elimination is borrowed from Michael Starks' book, Marijuana Potency, and involves stem structure. Large, hollow main stems are sought while pith-filled stems are eliminated. Backed by years of observation, I agree that hollow stems do seem to facilitate THC production.

    Another consideration is the type of floral clusters that develop. Even on males, clusters which are tight, compact and yet very productive are desired over an airy, loose structure. These observations are most notable in the indoor environment. Outdoors, the differences in stem and floral structures are more difficult to discern.

    The next and perhaps most important characteristic to examine is that of odor, flavor and trichome development. Again, the females will prove themselves by their finished product, but the males are a bit trickier.

    With the remaining males I usually employ an odor/flavor test. Using males at least two or three weeks into the flowering cycle (and preferably beyond if a separate, isolated space is being used), a sort of "scratch-and-sniff" technique is first employed. With clean, odor-free fingers, gently rub one plant at a time, on the stem where it is well developed and pliable, above the woody part and below the developing top (approximately at the spot where a clone would be cut). The newer leaves at their halfway point of development may also be rubbed and sniffed.

    These are the places that the earliest chemical signatures of a developing plant present themselves, and it is our intent to gently disturb these chemicals and inspire an odor/flavor reaction on the fingers and on the plant. By examining these various aromas in this way one may be able to determine certain desirable (and also undesirable) characteristics. After clearing one's palate and refreshing one's fingers, another plant may be tested.

    The finalists are best compared for at least a week and at different times of day, to determine who performs best over a period of time.

    A few of the "good" aromas which I have found to be associated with both male and female high quality cannabis are: sweet, floral, fruity, berry, wine/brandy, other savory spirits, skunky and spearmint. Some of the "bad" aromas associated with both male and female cannabis are: grassy, chlorophyll (green), celery, parsley, carrots, cinnamon, pepper-mint or wintergreen, gear-oil and gasoline. Some of the aromas that are considered "good" from females but not necessarily from males are: woody, cedar, pine, citrus, tropical fruit, chocolate, vanilla, coffee, garlic and astringent.


    The Second Run!!
    After selections are made, it is also necessary to remember to test for these qualities across a number of clone generations. Do the desirable characteristics present in a new plant (from seed) persist through the following clone generations of that plant? Does the plant from clones of the original carry the same odor/flavor quality? The same potency? Overall desirability? The answers most definitely need to be "yes" if that individual is to be considered for future breeding.
    Look at the same aforementioned spot on the stem or developing leaves any time after the second week in the bud cycle and look for the greatest abundance of developing trichomes or secretory hairs (hairs that secrete fluid obvious at 30X and above magnification). More fully developed trichomes with very clear heads are generally the most desirable.

    These observations need to be done over a period of time (that is, not just a one-time look) and at different times of the day to determine which individuals perform best. Many various phenomena become apparent to those who are able to pay close attention over a period of time. To that effect I suggest you compile and composite detailed notes on one's observations, and to compare those notes over time. Detailed, comprehensive notes are the hallmark of any successful breeding program.

    Some other aspects to consider

    There are a number of aesthetic considerations to consider regarding fine quality cannabis breeding, such as color, overall structure, growth patterns and various bouquets. My primary goal involves finding the finished product with the most desirable and pleasant effects. So I focus on those aspects and stabilize them first. Once stabilized, a backcross or a cross to another variety may be utilized to further improve the line and/or increase vigor, if necessary.

    On the experimental level the finished product is expected to be either pleasant or powerful, depending on the individual. I prefer an herb that is pleasantly powerful or powerfully pleasant! So that is the sought-after goal. The range of experiences elicited by cannabis can vary from bliss to panic to stupefying. I much prefer the bliss aspects.

    Cannabis is unusual in its varying effects on our vascular-circulatory system. Some cannabis strains seem to act as a vasodilator and others as a vasoconstrictor. A vasoconstrictor is a substance that constricts blood vessels. It tends to elicit tension, excitement, anxiety, and even panic. A vasodilator is a substance that dilates blood vessels and tends to relax a person more easily into a blissful state. Therefore, I tend to prefer cannabis that seems to act as a vasodilator, simply not to the point of couch lock sedation.

    I have nothing against powerfully stony herb. It is just that as long as my breeding space is limited, I will choose to work with the more pleasant varieties – those that elicit a generally happy experience. Someday I look forward to working at stabilizing many different varieties of herb. After all, to each their own.


    One of the things I learned a long time ago was that something more than genetics or biological environment plays a role in the desirability of herb. During the 70's and 80's, as the number of growers proliferated, it became apparent to those privy to the info that a grower's personal vibe somehow became part of the plant's vibe.

    Generally speaking, mellow, laid-back growers tended to produce mellow, laid-back herb, whereas uptight, sinister growers tended to produce uptight, sinister herb. You must love what you do and with me it has become a passion to be the best.

    Some of this gets kinda deep but I have always written the way I speak so it shouldn't be to bad.

    Please excuse the spelling and shit I was typing on a lap top when I took these notes.

    Subcool

    Pictures of Sputnik 2.0 from Growers around the world!
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    Subcool Genetic Support

    Subcool is the author of Dank: The Quest for the Very Best Marijuana

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    Seedling

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    Great info, thanks

    Grasshopper
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    (Homer 850BC)

  10. #10
    leroy
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    That made more sense to me than many of the articles I've read. Some of the technical breeding jargon goes right over my head most times...

  11. #11
    leroy
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    Let me ask a general question. Is there ever an particular instance in by which using stress or chemical induced female pollen can be an advantage? Or can it and should it always be back-tracked and done correctly? I might have answered my own question with that correctly part... ;-)

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    Theraputic Cannabis Dominatrix pflover's Avatar

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    on a related note to leroy's question. if a male of the same parentage can't be found is it better to use some other good quality male and then back cross to get the mothers traits to express more fully?
    Regestered PDX area TC-caregiver for 2, housewife.

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    PRESERVE NEURAL PLASTICITY!!!

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    A true Cannaseur! Subcool's Avatar

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    I do not believe in selfing or crossing mainly because you need to start with 100's of seeds and stress them and end up with 20 that will not naturally herm. The male leands specific traits we want when making a cross and in many cases his are the genetics we seek. male produced by a female plant tricked into herming is not the same thing.

    I like to use a male of known progeny so that we know what he will do in the cross then slowly back cross to the mother plant to iliminate any undersirable traits you may work in.

    Its not always what you want I wasn't impressed with the Black Russian male and loved the Space Queen which is what Sputnik shifted gears to Vortex. The results were simply better.

    Sub
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    Subcool is the author of Dank: The Quest for the Very Best Marijuana

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    That is an excelant read Sub.You are truly dedicated to the cause.A question however,because I have bred by many of the fundementals that you have expressed and agree with them.Do you,or have you, ever used multiple males on any of your Elites to try and create slightly more diversity in the the F1s.I bred my Northern Whites using this technique.The males I chose.(the best 3 of 12) were NL#5 which were of Nevilles stocks and were an IBL line.I found as I mentioned before that there was more variation to select from out of the initial breed.Just wondering bro what your thoughts on that are,Respect,Chemo
    We do not inherit this land from our fathers,We borrow it from our children

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    TY Contest Mod The Lorax's Avatar

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    SubCool,
    Really good stuff. I have a headache, but in the good way.
    I like it when someone makes me realize just how much I don't know.
    Can I stick a straw in your ear and take a little sip?
    I'm very glad that there's people like you out there.
    Thanks
    Gonna get back to basics, guess I'll start it up again.....

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    Flowering Member salmayo's Avatar

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    Default Looking for Mr. Goodbud

    Quote Originally Posted by Subcool
    Another consideration is the type of floral clusters that develop. Even on males, clusters which are tight, compact and yet very productive are desired over an airy, loose structure. These observations are most notable in the indoor environment. Outdoors, the differences in stem and floral structures are more difficult to discern.
    I tend to think of breeding Cannabis as breeding males. It's easy to evaluate females, which makes sellection of females comparatively easy. Evaluation of the males contibution to producing better female seeds seems much more elusive, but just as critical as choosing females for breeding.

    Here the Floral Structure of males is mentioned, and it's contribution to resultant female offspring seems obvious.

    I've developed the habit of torture testing as a means of better applying sellective pressure in breeding for Floral Structure, one area in particular is loose vs. tight structures and the tendency of plants to respond to stimuli to elongate. I use this for BOTH male and female sellection. By using low light levels or increased Far Red to Red ratios, the stimulus to elongate is increased and observable differences become more apparent, resulting greater elimination (or identification) of possible breeding candidates.

    Once a determination of comparative responces to a particular stimuli are established, it should be considered that plants grown in the absence of stimuli will often have other responces change in responce to the change in environment, for instance, the plants that are the most productive under low light levels, may not be as comparatively productive under higher light levels (or different spectrums). So, I tend to consider both the specific responces to individual environmental factors AND the responce to the targetted growth environment for the plants, for instance targetting Indoor vs. Outdoor growing environments.

    I do think that outdoor performance is valuable in comparing for breeding Indoor plants, but I think that under a standard indoor environment, performance in comparing for breeding Outdoor plants is less usefull, if only because it is less stressful.
    Last edited by salmayo; 09-27-2007 at 07:08 PM.
    The City of Chico has the highest per capita MJ consumption in America... ...and it doesn't even feel like work.

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    A true Cannaseur! Subcool's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by chemo
    That is an excelant read Sub.You are truly dedicated to the cause.A question however,because I have bred by many of the fundementals that you have expressed and agree with them.Do you,or have you, ever used multiple males on any of your Elites to try and create slightly more diversity in the the F1s.I bred my Northern Whites using this technique.The males I chose.(the best 3 of 12) were NL#5 which were of Nevilles stocks and were an IBL line.I found as I mentioned before that there was more variation to select from out of the initial breed.Just wondering bro what your thoughts on that are,Respect,Chemo
    I am not a fan of this method either but for different reasons. I know from my work that there are great males worthy of keeping and crossing with all elite females and there are males that absolutly suck when it comes to there traits that are passed on. Now if we use multiple males and even 3 are what we want but 1 is that one we don't want do you want to wade through that seed line to seperate the 1/4 thats will herm and or god knows what else?
    Subcool Genetic Support

    Subcool is the author of Dank: The Quest for the Very Best Marijuana

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    Seedling saeon-tsion's Avatar

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    It's good to hear that you work that way, Sub, with such an emphasis on watching for undesirable traits creeping in -- it seems like a lot of breeders only focus on the positive aspects and sort of ignore, or try to sweep under the rug, the negative which they see over the course of their breeding efforts.

    My first creation, a near-pure indica strain called Super G (G13xBSH crossed with Stardust 13, which is NL#5-x-Hashplant-x-G13), does have some tendency to herm as inherited from both parents (the G13xBSH about 2-3X as much as the SD13), and in some phenotypes can be quite significant of a problem for wasting yield, producing undesirable hermi-selfed seeds, etc.....

    My prayer is that your carefully crafted Vortex & The Third Dimension genetics, along with the SAGExChronic that I also worked into my outdoor-2007 outcrosses.....will help wipe out that hermaprodizing influence and further heighten the hybrid vigor that I have found so wonderful in my outcrosses.
    stealth is wealth.

    i am a sick man and have been in severe pain for more than five years. without cannabis and pain medication i am worse than dead. i am just looking for ways to reform the law, take care of my wife and children without fear, and let LEO focus on real crime.

  19. #19
    Flowering Member salmayo's Avatar

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    Default Decubing using wet controlled pollenations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subcool
    I am not a fan of this method either but for different reasons. I know from my work that there are great males worthy of keeping and crossing with all elite females and there are males that absolutly suck when it comes to there traits that are passed on. Now if we use multiple males and even 3 are what we want but 1 is that one we don't want do you want to wade through that seed line to seperate the 1/4 thats will herm and or god knows what else?
    This is basically the arguement I have against cubing, especially with the limitations of numbers that most med growers face.

    I believe the ability to do one, rather than multiple, pollenations, is what makes cubing so attractive to many people.

    But, without increasing the number of plants or number of flowerings needed to do segregated rather than cubed, pollenations, the task can be completed fairly well using a separate flowering area for the males and tracked manual pollentation of the females.

    I say "fairly well" since, as a wind pollentated species, Cannabis pollen tends to contaminate exposed females, but by using wetted pollen from each male separately to pollenate labelled flowers on each females, and rinse spraying before the plants are physically moved or exposed to fans, "fairly" separated pollenations can be accomplished. Using common soap spray solution as a wetting agent would suggest that pollenation bags (or pouches) wouldn't be needed.

    Then, by growing out the same number of labelled seed, comparisons between the results of each male's genetic input can be made.

    Even if some stray pollenation takes place, the majority of the results will be from the (semi) controlled pollenations, allowing for reasonable comparisons between the offsprings of different males.

    Other than maintaining a separate male flowering area for pollen generation, this method would seem to offer better elimination tracking, with control levels nearly as good as using separate females.

    If for example you used 4 males to pollenate 1 female and then sprouted 12 seeds from each male labelled flower of the mother plant, comparing the results of the 4 groups of offspring would allow you to sellect one group (12) and thereby eliminate 75% (36) of the total plants in the total population (48). And then, sellecting preferred plants of that group (12) would (tend) to give better results than the same number of plants sellected from a cubed group (48), 4 times as large.

    Perhaps it's just a personal preference, but to me it seems to be worth having a separate male area, in order to produce more trackable results and hopefully resultant better sellections of breeding stock, and group (traked), rather than individual plant (cubing), elimination seems to be a better method. Since with breeding, sellective pressure is needed to isolate superior traits and eliminate inferior ones, and the better this pressure is applied, the better the results.

    Or perhaps there's a flaw with this logic, that I'm just not seeing subjectively (biased) rather than objectively (impartially).
    The City of Chico has the highest per capita MJ consumption in America... ...and it doesn't even feel like work.

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    Vegetative Member Red Sky's Avatar

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    Nice VerY Nice!!

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    Time to air this again.
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    [SIZE=5][COLOR=Blue]Truth flows on to credibility, and credibility will be the vehicle for change[/COLOR][/SIZE]

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    Wink Questions to the experts ????

    I am creating a brand new strain with a male chosen from this seed grow, and my Lavender plants. I am seeding 2 plants out that are very well developed in pistols. My male plant is just about to explode with yellow dust over the two girls. I should end up with 100's or maybe even thousands of healthy seeds (hopefully).

    So here are some questions...

    If I grow out several (20-50) then chose the best looking female and male, am I creating yet another strain? Should I clone the male and use him to pollinate the second generation female, therefore purifying the line? How many times must this process be repeated.

    I have a very creative name planned for this brand new medical quality INDICA.....I only grow indica's because of the short squat, bushy, and easy to manage size.

    The original seeds I produce are called an F1? and subsequnt crossing is called an F2?


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    A strain is not your strain just because you crossed it. Finding an F1 you like, and working with it until the line resembles your plant (crossed) more than it does the parents is when you've got yourself a strain, in my opinion.

    Crossing back to the male can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the male. You can back-cross to the original male until you get what you want out of it. It just depends on what you're looking for.

    As for the vernacular..

    F1 = P1 x P2
    F2 = F1 x F1
    F3 = F2 x F2

    Etc.

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