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  1. #1
    Embryo tat2dincali's Avatar

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    Default What's Organic, What's Not?

    This i really liked alot , i have a pretty good understanding of organics and what people like to use in there grows because of certain organic, or inorganic material,
    there is a handful of med users around here and we all trade cuttings and help eachother out, which is nice,
    and id say every grower has his or her method of growing and stick with it cuz it works for them, and we all share info like here in the forums about what worked for them what didnt work, why my one friend will only grow organic in soil and another will only grow hydroponically and it works for both of them for there own reasons,
    but then i know alot of people that are just complete hard heads and will only smoke or grow 100% "organic" weed but cant explain why or whats organic , other then, its good for the earth,and pestiscides are bad,
    i think these people are just snobs basically the same people that drive the prius for $60,000 or whatever which has been proven to not live up to all the hype about it,
    ne waze this article kinda says to me that the "organic" food industry is just confusing federal bureaucracy to set somewhat of a laxed standard with varying degrees of whats considered organic not really being very organic.
    maybe its a big conspiracy to sell more produce , lol JK
    i dont use pestiscides at all!!! i use probotanicare nutes which are incredible and i flush the hell out of my plants and have the best tasting weed always, but some knuckleheads are so goofy they would rather smoke the stuff grown with composted trash and old food and stuff cuz its healthier?
    ne waze ,lol, i really liked this article, i would also like to hear feedback also, if you agree or disagree id love to hear it ive been really interested in the area of organics and soilless, so let me hear ya TAT2D

    We would think that this is an easy question to answer, but it isn't. In the United States there are numerous different definitions of "organic," many of which differ significantly. Each state has its own regulations for labeling produce as organic." Additionally, there are 36 non-governmental organizations which can certify" produce as organic. For example, California growers who wish to se11 their produce as "organic" must register with the California Department of Food and Agriculture and pass their inspection. however, California grower's can also obtain certification through the California Certified Organic Farmers (CCOF), which actually has higher standards for organic than the state has. The CCOF certification is optional, but produce with California state registration and CCOF certification may be offered for sale within the state as "certified organic" If the grower chooses not to seek CCOF certification, the produce can be offered for sale in California as "organic," but not "certified organic. Any produce grown outside of the United States can be sold as "certified organic" in the country if one of the 36 non-governmental organizations certifies it. In fact, produce from any state can be granted certification from one of the non-governmental organizations, even if it does not meet the organic standards for the state in which it is being sold. Pretty confusing! What this all means is that the "organic" label is a matter of bureaucratic definitions which can vary from state to state, and country to country. In order to bring some kind of standard into play, the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) - along with state government regulators, non-governmental certifiers, consumers, industry interest groups, food processors and various special interest groups is writing a federally mandated set of "organic" standards. No state will be able to apply more stringent Standards than those of the federal. Sometime this spring, the federal standards will be released for a 90 day comment and review period, and by the end of 1996 or early 1997, these standards will become law, or "Frankenlaw;" we'll have to wait and see. The basic objectives of"organic" practice include the following: * Avoidance of pesticides, by use of natural pest controls (also applied by many hydroponics growers). * caring for soil by recording nutrients and composting, and * moderation of nutrient application with reliance on the buffer action of humus derived from compost. Soilless hydroponic cultivation moderates nutrient supply by the more exact measurements of soluble nutrient. formulations, mixed to meet the optimum requirements of each plant species and growth phase. Many consumers select "organic" produce, believing that this is the only way to be assured of pesticide-free nonhrazardous food. While "organic" farming methods do produce crops generally superior to and safer than those grown by agri-business practices modern hydroponic techniques can put forth equally safe food that in many cases offers advances in nutrition and taste over their soil-grown "organic counterparts. But to the consumer, it's the label that counts, so an increasing number of growers throughout the United States are struggling to get organic certification in any way, shape or form. Meanwhile, this whole situation poses an enormous dilemma to hydroponic growers who also want organic recognition for their produce. The primary problem for organic hydroponic growers is in the formulation of the soilless nutrient solution. A secondary issue, which concerns the federal regulators, is in the way used hydroponic nutrient and media such as rockwool, are disposed of. Since "organic" is to a large extent a farming philosophy in support of a healthy environment, the federal concern is entirely reasonable. Although the latter factor has no bearing on the quality and safety of the produce itself, the impact upon the planet is a real driving force behind the issue of "organic" farming. If hydroponic growers can find a way to completely recycle exhausted water, nutrients and media, then the argument in favor of "organic-hydroponic certification" becomes much stronger, but there's still the issue of formulating a satisfactory organic hydroponic nutrient mix. Organic nutrient regulations prohibit the use of many mineral salts and highly refined substances, including food and pharmaceutical grade ingredients that are extremely important for successful hydroponic nutrient formulation. Only unrefined minerals can be used on "organic" crops and these often don't dissolve well or contain quantities of impurities, some of which are even relatively toxic, but "natural and therefore okay," according to organic standards- For example, mined phosphate may contain excessive amounts of fluoride, good for teeth in very small quantities, but harmful to humans in excess. Mined phosphate also can contain small amounts of radioactive elements such as radium, which releases radon, also not good for human health. Chlorides, too, are permitted for organic cultivation but though they are naturally mined, they can be bad for both plants and soil, especially if used in excess. Some soils used by organic farmers contain such toxic elements as selenium, which can accumulate in the plant tissues and produce. Amazing, isn't it? When refined, any impurities or toxicities such as those listed above are removed, but refined minerals make for non-organic produce. Blood meal, bone meal, fish meal and manures pose almost no potential safety hazards, but they don't dissolve very well; they must be broken down through microbial action in the soil and therefore don't work well in hydroponic applications. There is also a problem that sometimes arises when using manures. The Western Fertilizer Handbook, an important guide for American farmers, points out that many gastro-intestinal illnesses can he traced back to manures used on organically gown crops. In the summer of 1995, a serious outbreak of salmonella poisoning resulted from an organic cantaloupe crop growing in soil fertilized with fresh chicken manure. The rinds of the melons had become contaminated and the bacteria caused serious intestinal illness for many consumers. Another point that can be made is that strict vegetarians or animal rights activists may be offended by the use of blood, bone, horn, hoof and feather meals to grow their food, but these are primary nutrient sources for organic farmers. As you can see, this issue Is very complex and there are many points of view. Essentially though, "organic" farming is part philosophy and part methodology, but unfortunately defined bureaucratically.[/B][/B]

  2. #2
    soulmate
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    Very good reading. I feel that you can be organic in soiless mixes, like Pro Mix etc. I use Pro-Mix but only uses organic fert's, like mother earth from A.N. etc. I use ladybugs, neem oil, etc for pest control as needed. I use now man made chem's at all. So I would said that it is as close to organic as you can be, in a soiless garden.

  3. #3
    soulmate
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    I forgot, I use wood ash, worm casting, bat and seabird guano, also.

  4. #4
    Seedling rangergord's Avatar

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    Good Stuff Tat2dincali! I am a vegetarian and although I realize that use of animal byproducts is fairly safe, I object to being required to use them. Take away slaughterhouse wastes and manure and most organic systems fall flat on their face. One solution is to close the loop by using human waste. Human urine is sterile and makes up 80% of all nutrients we excrete. I have been experimenting with urine in my outdoor gardens and compost piles. Using urine I have been able to make artificial manure or compost from pure straw and leaves. I also grew one of the best crops of potatoes I have ever had using urine. Human feces contains only 20% of the nutrients we excrete but that 20% is mostly phosphorus, a nutrient that is in short supply in most organic fertilizers. Only bat guano and rock phosphate contain as much phosphorus as human feces. Feces must be thermally composted to destroy ecoli and other disease causing organisms. It should not be placed in direct contact with food crops. I have not yet begun to use feces but when I have the proper composting facilities set up I plan to start. Human wastes are, I am pretty sure, forbidden under current organic standards BUT I ask you what could be more organic? Lets stop polluting our rivers, lakes and oceans and reduce the number of exploited animals.

  5. #5
    Embryo tat2dincali's Avatar

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    good replies, i would love to think that everything i put into my body is good for me , but its hard to say whats going to be the healthiest for you unless you grow your own veggies and such under controlled circumstances, but it is sometimes very hard t get my point across about the organic inorganic issue, i personally think the organic food market is kind of a farce, and as far as organic "growing" is concerned i believe hydroponics is much less damage to the enviroment then soil growing , minus the water, it is pretty darn organic, when you start with raw water you know whats in it , nothin!!! then it is up to you to add the nutrients, which really if done right and flushed and cured properly there should be nothin but good smoke, alot of people dont flush dry and cuire properly and there weed tastes like shit and will blame it on the nutes or enviroment, i still use so called organic nutes from probotanicare but they still have inorganics in them which is crushed up minerals or the such and it always grows the best, like the post before even with the organic manures and such they produce by products that are bad, and it runs off into rivers and the such, and alot of these fertilizers have been deemed safe with still high levels of nasty by products and such, how is that good for the enviro, not to mention the clearing and planting of crops destroys natural growth, so i stick to my hydro set up "

  6. #6
    Seedling rangergord's Avatar

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    Yes I agree that organics while well-meaning is not scientific. The american botanicaire products are pretty impressive. I use a bit of the Liquid Karma.
    I think hydroponics has potential to solve many problems, it works better than natural soil indoors and in greenhouses. It can be efficient, but some hydroponic systems are inefficient. If you have to refill a large reservoir with water and nutrients every two weeks because the ppm levels are out of balance, what do you do with the excess? Pouring them down the drain is adding to water pollution and using them in the garden outdoors is not hydroponics! Almost any crop is able to be grown in a hydroponic system but only some crops are practical and economic to grow hydroponically. Growing grains and tree crops in any real quantity requires using soil! So while hydroponics has its role to play it is not a panacea anymore than organics is.

  7. #7
    Embryo

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    Great thread everyone!

    I've used Botanicare's PurBlend Pro line for hydro (though the general consensus is that they are only mostly organic) and it was a dream to work with. I went with DWC (deep water culture or bubblers) and I only did 1 reservoir change during the entire grow about 1 1/2 weeks into blooming.PBP also has a PH buffer in it so my PH never strayed off 5.9-6.1 making the whole grow almost totally foolproof except for a slight overfeeding at one point.

    I've never been a flusher myself nor have I ever had a problem with harsh burning or poor tasting pot but that might be due to the feed I'm using. I'm mostly a soil guy and am also a huge fan of worm casting but I'm definately thinking of changing most of my garden to hydro as the year moves on.


    Looking forward to more posts and info on this topic,
    -Dr.LOAD
    Last edited by Dr.LOAD; 05-09-2006 at 05:39 PM.
    The Doctor is "in"

  8. #8
    Theraputic Cannabis Dominatrix pflover's Avatar

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    I'm a big fan of PBP my self.

    Sorry but i have to do this cause i am a geek and since this is in the Hydro thread i can't resist.

    H2O by the Chemestry definition is not organic.

    Organic means composed of carbon chains and hydrogen primarily and water does not contain the required carbon. This was one of the favorate chemestry paradoxes of my O-chem prof and it stuck i guess. lol
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    Botanicare has aleays taken good care of every one of my hydrogarden grows...
    Life is Good!

  10. #10
    Seedling

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    PureBlend Pro is a very good, mostly "organic" product line. It's generally easy to deal with on small scales at least, and the PH balance isn't quite as critical with that as with other hydro systems. Also I don't think you need to flush when using that product as it rarely produces a chemical aftertaste. Most people don't use it at full recommended strength either, but I'm sure some are able to.

    (The term "organic" was defined many decades ago as PFLover has pointed out to mean carbon & hydrogen chained compounds. Even the term "natural" isn't going to cover foods properly, because oil is a natural product too. Maybe they should have used the term "renewable" or something like that.)
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